300win need advise

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Jonathan, Aug 17, 2001.

  1. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    Aug 17, 2001
    has any one used 168gr hornady B.T.HP'S for
    hunting? as I am new to the long shot big
    game hunting could you tell me what your thoughts are on bullet selection. I belive
    I have the skill to preforme well but my
    long range experimentation has all been
    learned through varmint rigs ie .223 .22-250
    ..243 .270iwth 90gr hp,s and Iknow there is bound to be a few changes needed to be sucsesfull thanks in advanced great site!
     
  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Jonathan

    Welcome to Long Range Hunting!

    I haven't used this particular bullet but I have use a 300 Win and several other cartridges.

    If this bullets flies well from your rifle and you're confident in your ability it should work fine. I believe Kirk kelso uses 168 grain bullets with great success.

    It's a fair bit different hunting big game at long range, read over some of the posts concerning animal behavior and game locating, it'll be valuble info for you.

    Great to have you here, we're generally a very friendly bunch and willing to help. Good Luck.
     
  3. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    Aug 17, 2001
    thanks Dave I just got back from the range
    with my new rifle it,s a rem.model 700stainles synthedic with a 6-18 baush and
    lome in leapauld rings and bases awsome to
    look at but only shoots 1.5-2.0 at 100yd my
    old 300win ,a post model 70 win shot .5-.75I did not limit my testing to just loads that
    worked in my old gun eather do you have any
    sudgestions please help I can not belive I
    sold a tack driver and bought a scatergun
    good God what have I done lol
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Jonathan

    Sorry to hear that your first experience with the new rifle were less than anticipated.

    First thing I'd do is sit down and recreate the days events.

    What did you do differently than when you were shooting the older rifle?

    How many NEW variables were involved?

    Did you clean the rifle before shooting it?

    Did you clean it between different ammo types?

    Did you check the action screws tight? Loosen and then tighten rather than checking for tightness only.

    Is the barrel touching the stock anywhere? Check the underside of the barrel too, use some folded paper to check clearance around the barrel.

    Were you shooting from a bench and front rest? Did the front (or rear) sling swivel come in contact with the rest(s) or bags during recoil? Did the shooting position cause the barrel to touch anything, including the inside of the barrel channel?

    Do you get a good cheek weld or is the new rifle ill fitted to your eye height?

    Examine the fired brass. Anything abnormal about it, compare it to unfired rounds. Check for runout on the fired and unfired brass. Is the fired brass 'egged' on the body, or neck? If you don't have a runout guage, slowly roll the fired round across a clean, dry, flat surface and watch for 'wobble' or any out-of-roundness.

    Check the crown of the rifle, there should be no nicks or unusual markings.

    Open the mag. well and check the mag. box loose (it should be loose enough to move with your fingers). If it's bound up tight it may be caught between the floorplate and the action.

    Check the scope, mounts and bases tight. Did you install the scope, bases and rings or was it assembled by someone else? If you're not sure about the optics system, remove everything, scope, rings and bases. Reinstall the bases, only install one base screw at a time and then check the base for tightness. If the base is tight to the action with only one screw installed, loosen that screw and install another screw and check for tightness again. Repeat this procedure with each screw and base hole... each screw MUST be able to hold the base tight to the action on it's own. Once all screws have been checked, tighten all the screws and install the rings. Check the rings for fit and tightness too. The rings should only contact the base and not touch the action.

    If it still won't shoot well.... let someone else try it (preferable a good shooter). Don't 'front load' the other shooter, in other words, don't tell the 'test' shooter that you can't get the rifle to shoot and you would like him to test it. Just have him shoot it sort of as a 'how do you like it' test. If it shoots poorly for him too, I'd say it was the rifle and I'd continue trouble shooting the thing or consider a custom barrel fitting or get rid of the thing.

    There's nothing more irritating to me than a rifle that won't shoot, with the single exception of a visit from my mother-in-law [​IMG] [​IMG] .
     
  5. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    dave thanks for all the info and for geting back so quickly al is app. and I am going to print out your reply and follow it step by
    step. I tryed 165g A-max and nosler bt,168g
    hornady bthp, 180gpmc sp 180g nosler bal tip
    powder IMR 3031 accuret Xmr 3100 not tons of
    money to spend here have two kids and one is
    post heart transplant,this thing has to put meat on the table this year as I lost my job over this ordeal. got to go talk soon thanks [​IMG]
     
  6. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mr king
    Thank You thank you thank you,went over your post again and did some hard thinking.....
    came up with the fact that all varibles seemed in check except the scope [​IMG] I had
    taken it off another sience project,recolies
    .22 cal Diana 54 air king modified to shoot
    14.5gr pellets 1130fps and deliver .5 groups
    at 75m and enough punch to take down 18lb
    racoons with one shot in almost silence.....
    real cool to see but evidently [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] verry hard on
    scopes so I afixed on of my varmint scopes atop of my new cannon and though I could not
    get to the range set a target in a clear cut close to home and shot 5 rnds took only 2 to
    get zeroed at 100paces last three shot quarter inch group [​IMG] [​IMG] all shots
    were prone with harris bipod with clean barrel and with beleave it ore not the worst
    load combination of this mornings shot Thank
    you again....oh forgot to ask what do like to shoot and what bullet make and config. do you prefer for long range shooting and does your choice change with animal and target loads or do you preferlike myself to become
    intimite with one load for both?
     
  7. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

    Messages:
    24
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2001
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mr king
    Thank You thank you thank you,went over your post again and did some hard thinking.....
    came up with the fact that all varibles seemed in check except the scope [​IMG] I had
    taken it off another sience project,recolies
    .22 cal Diana 54 air king modified to shoot
    14.5gr pellets 1130fps and deliver .5 groups
    at 75m and enough punch to take down 18lb
    racoons with one shot in almost silence.....
    real cool to see but evidently [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] verry hard on
    scopes so I afixed on of my varmint scopes atop of my new cannon and though I could not
    get to the range set a target in a clear cut close to home and shot 5 rnds took only 2 to
    get zeroed at 100paces last three shot quarter inch group [​IMG] [​IMG] all shots
    were prone with harris bipod with clean barrel and with beleave it ore not the worst
    load combination of this mornings shot Thank
    you again....oh forgot to ask what do like to shoot and what bullet make and config. do you prefer for long range shooting and does your choice change with animal and target loads or do you preferlike myself to become
    intimite with one load for both?
     
  8. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    May 3, 2001
    Jonathan

    Great, good to hear positive things are happening.

    For bullets, I like to shoot what shoots the best group(s) with the rifle. Once I have a good accurate load that I confident with, I'll use that load pretty much exclusively...there are exceptions. I know the the Nosler Ballistic Tips I shoot from my 300 Win mag (3150 fps muzzle vel) will not penetrate well for bone hits at close range. So, when I expect to encounter something I need to 'break-down' with a shoulder shot at close range I carry a few Partitions with me, loaded into the magazine on top of the Ballistic Tip loads.

    Knowing the limitation of the bullets is part of the overall picture for me.

    In reality, I like to shoot only one load from each rifle, I tape the ballistics data to the inside of the rear Butler Creek lens cap and carry a little notebook of data in a pouch attached to the rifle. I use the Eagle cheek pad on nearly all my rifles.

    For my 'varmint' rifles I shoot Sierra MatchKings exclusively. I use these rifles for depredation deer and small varmints. The matchkings are very effective for deer size game but I'm very careful about shot placement, typically I shoot brain, double-lung or cervical spine.

    On the big gun (338) I use the 300 grain Sierra MatchKing exclusively. This is a tough nasty bullet and shot placement isn't nearly as critical as with the little .223 or 6mm.

    As to long range shooting and bullet selection. I'm a believer in the 'heavier is better' at long range. This needs clarification, by heavier I mean the aerodynamically better bullet, this is often translated as heavier.

    I believe that the highest B.C. bullet that will fly from the rifle is probably the better long range choice. If the shooter is expecting to only take shots inside the 500 yard line (medium and large bore rifle) then a 'lighter and faster' bullet may be the better choice. As a visual example for yourself, run a ballistics chart for your rifle using a light-fast bullet and one using a heavy-slow high B.C. bullet. Check to see where the heavy-slow bullet becomes the 'flatter' shooting bullet. That's the distance where you're definately better with the heavy bullet.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jonathan,

    Happy to see you figured out the poor group problem.

    I use a 300 win mag for long range deer hunting - if you consider 750 yards long range. I use 75.5gr of Reloader 22 pushing a 180gr ballistic tip at a measured 3180 FPS. I have had different results then another poster here in that I have yet to have the 180gr ballistic tip explode at close range. I killed a deer last deer (150lb doe) at 75 yards. The bullet went in high on the right shoulder, busting the shoulder and driving into the chest. I was shooting down from my stand - my stand has a 17' line of sight. When the deer was gutted I found that the lungs were toast, the right shoulder was gone. I have only killed about 50 deer so far using a ballistic tip (in both a 7mm mag and 300 win mag) and I have never had one explode when going in on a bone. I am not saying anybody else has had other things happen but it has yet to happen to me.

    I like the 180gr ballistic tip because it shoots flat and is quite accurate - for a hunting bullet. Three years ago I did use the 150gr ballistic tips in my 300 win mag but I got flatter results with the 180gr once it got out past 550 or so yards. Plus the 180gr retains more energy at the longer distances. I am sure there are target bullets that will perform better.

    I will continue to use the 180gr ballistic tips as long as I get predictable results.

    I wish you well in your new project.

    Don [​IMG]
     
  10. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    Aug 17, 2001
    [​IMG] [​IMG] I don,t know weather to laugh or cry ,wentto the range to day and the load that shot so well two days ago would only group1.110th average was about
    2.0 caled the store where I baught it and
    he told me to call Remington whom transfered
    me to tec suport who was not there and transfered me to coustemer suport ......who
    told me that I should try geting one box of every type and grain of amo that remington
    makes especially the premium safari grade
    and if that didn't work to have a rem. authorized dealer to send it back and gave
    me the # of the one neares to me so I phoned
    and the guy must have been on his computer
    and read Mr kings post from above and when
    I told him that I have already aplyed that info......he said sell it [​IMG] because It would be at least 9 mounths before I got it across Canada customes twice and throught Rems. shope and that is there was nothing sereious wrong with it [​IMG] It's gone tomorrow morning I hope he still has my old win.mod 70 300win kikin about and he dosn't hose me to bad.thank you for all the suport
    excuse me but have to go through up now
     
  11. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Shaky and Jonathan

    Figured I'd explain a little more about my close range experiences with the Ballistic Tip.

    First I'll say that I have used the Ballistic Tip extensively. I used it for an entire year on crop damage deer with the 243. I used both the 70 grain varmint version and the 90 grain hunting version. The furthest kill with the 70 grain was 526 yards on a double lung shot, the doe went about 40 yards and piled up. The little 70 grain varmint BTip did a complete pass through.

    I've used them on groundhogs in 22, 6mm and 30 caliber, all very accurate.

    I've never had a problem with them 'exploding' with the 308 or 243 (the 90 grain hunting version BTip).
    The 300 Win mag is another issue. I'll cover the last experience with them when I was too close to the deer (and I picked the wrong shot placement). I was on an intercept for a fella I hunt with, we hunt as a pair and force the deer back and forth across a narrow island, sort of a two man drive and each driver advancing alternately acting as driver then stander. A small doe (yearling) walked out from some brush about 15 yards from me (I was shooting meat for other hunters) and I placed the crosshairs between her eyes and pressed the trigger. Loud boom, pinkish mist and the deer was on the ground in the light snow. I turned about 120 degrees to better watch the intended entrance for the deer and eventually saw my partner. I turned again to where the dead doe was and, NO deer, it was gone. I was completely dumbfounded, a few quick thoughts flashed through my mind to account for the missing deer, BIG EAGLE got it, ALIEN from Predator, Day dreaming? I stepped over to where the deer had hit the ground and there was significant amounts of blood, tracks entering and LEAVING the blood stains. I followed the track about 30 yards and heard a wet gargling sort of snorkeling sound, very odd. I looked in the direction of the sound and there that deer was, pitiful sight to say the least. It's face was blown back like a peeled banana nearly even with it's eye sockets. I shot it in the back of the head and was done with it. I had one blow-up on a hard quartering-to shot onto a shoulder also.

    They're a good bullet and I like them but I just don't trust them when they're going real fast. I believe a double-lung close range shot is okay but I'm careful with them.
    (As a side note, I'm still shooting the same Lot Number I've had for years.)

    I do have a ballistic tip that I recovered from an elk I shot at 905 yards, it retained 150+- grains and was recovered from the off-side of the elk, great long range bullet.

    This post is certainly not meant to dispute anyones experience with Ballistics Tips, it's just my experience with them and the lesson I've taken to heart from MY experience(s).
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Dave,

    I surely didn't mean to imply that anybody was not telling the truth. As you said, we have had different experiences with ballistic tips, thats all. Just a side note, I would never shoot a deer in the head, but thats just me.

    You said: You are still using the same lot #. Are these older ballistic tips or newer ones? I used the 150gr ballistic tips in my 7mm mag about 15 years ago and had horrible results with them. I never lost a deer using them but I sure tracked a lot of them to finally get them. I switched to 130gr Speer Hot cores in my 7mm mag and have never looked back, that bullet just flattens deer.

    I went back to ballistic tips for my 300 win mag only because I heard they were tougher then they used to be and that they do in fact shoot flat and accurate. I killed a deer 2 seasons ago running full out across a harvested bean field at 250 yards. That deer was so pumped up I doubt a claymore would of stopped it. It did run another 150 yards after I put a hole through it, did a backwards flip and was dead (never made it out of the field). Other then that extreme case all the other deer I have killed using the 180gr ballistic tip went no more then 30 yards after the hit. Three years ago I killed a doe at 380 yards, spined it, obviously it went right down, and another at 420 yards 20 seconds later, the bullet entered just ahead of the left rump (deer was quartering away), passed all the way through the deer and exited the right shoulder breaking it's right front leg. That deer belly crawled 30 yards. Both of those deer were killed using 150gr ballistic tips. I now use 180gr ballistic tips exclusively - out of my 300 win mag.

    I know there are a lot of non-believers out there when it comes to killing any animal past whatever their threshold is - thats why we are all here. If you have the time, I would enjoy hearing more details about the elk you killed at 900 + yards using a 180gr ballistic tip. Congrats on a heck of a shot. I have put in for the draw in AZ for 4 years now - no luck yet. If and when I ever do draw an elk tag I plan to use my 300 win mag and 180gr ballistic tips. I can't beleive that that bullet won't put down anything in the lower 48.

    Have a good one,

    Don [​IMG]