Liltank,
First off, you seem to misunderstand my position on this topic. If you would have read my comments on the original topic of this event you would know I clearly believe that the kill is possible and that certainly the 338 Lapua has plenty of power at this range to easily kill any human if hit correctly.
My concerns is with the three shots, three kills claim and I stand by that. I also agree that if I were in this position, I would do the exact same thing this sniper did, throw lead until the thread was eliminated or I ran out of ammo and had to call in support. Of course, running out of ammo in this situation would not be wise.
As far as the test you propose I perform that you feel needs to be done to support my "Opinion" is not needed. I have tested this with hundreds of shots. This is not opinion I am offering, its based solely on actual shooting I have done with MANY chamberings in this caliber at ranges from 1900 to 3000 yards and probably close to $1000 spent in just ammo componants in this testing alone.
Several years back we were heavy into getting into the Varmint Masters Down range clubs. This is a world wide competition to make live varmint kills at various ranges including 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 yards as well as a competition for the longest shot of the year award.
We set up some smaller caliber rifles and my brother, my Dad and myself all quickly got into the 500 yard club the first time we went out. On the next couple trips we tried for the 1000 yard clubs but this proved to be much more challanging. As such, I put together two heavy V-Block rifles just for this purpose. Both were chambered in the 338 Kahn(338-378 Wby with 35 degree shoulder). My rifle had a 34" barrel and short throat, my brothers had a 36" barrel and he wanted it long throated.
My rifles favorite load was the 300 gr SMK at 2850 fps and my brothers accuracy load was the same bullet at 2930 fps. In our drop chart testing we needed to use a BC of .80 at our 3500 ft elevation to get exbal to match up with actual bullet trajectory.
After several weeks of testing the drop charts we took my brothers rifle out and He and Dad used it to make one shot kills at 1010 and 1015 yards.
By this time I had built my "little" Black Sunshine chambered in my 338 Allen Magnum and on its first outing we set up just to see what it would do and I was able to make a rockchuck kill at 2370 yards with it. Admittedly, I had to walk in the shots because I had not even fine tuned a drop chart yet but it took a total of 6 shots at this range. The 6 shot landed true so I was in the 2000 yard club on the first outing with this rifle and that shot turned out to be the longest shot of the year for a live varmint kill.
On the next outing I used Black sunshine to make a kill at 1095 yards qualifying me for the 1000 yard club as well. So now we were all in the 500 and 1000 yard clubs and I had gotten into the 2000 yard club.
I stepped back now and let Dad and My brother try for the 1500 yard club using his Kahn. Unfortunately this just did not happen because it was late in the season and the targets got few and far between. However, we did want to keep practicing so we would go out hunting and if nothing showed as far as a live varmint we would practice at field targets just to test drops and practice in the wind.
One day my brother set up in a 1/2 moa sized rock at what we measured to be 2500 yards. We dialed up for the shot and he sent a round down range. Dad and I were both spotting, nothing showed any sign of impact. We thought this was a bit strange so he sent another one down range. Again, nothing......
Now this rifle is a legit 1/4 moa rifle in good conditions, at 1000 yards, its not hard to hold 1/2 moa with three shots again in good conditions so I was very suprised to see these phantom shots.
We set there for several minutes trying to figure things out. Then we decided to check point of impact at 1000 yards thinking maybe we just lost our zero and were on the wrong revolution on the turret. Dialed back to zero and dialed up for the 1000 yard target. First shot sent up a plum of white dust off the rocks face. As did shots 2 and 3 on this 1 moa sized rock. All three hits were solidly in the center of the rock........
Dialed up again for 2500 yards, took a shot, nothing.......
Then we set up for a shot at roughly a mile, I beleive the target rock was at 1740 yards. Returned the scope to zero and dialed up for the new range. First shot landed on the bottom center edge of the roughly 1 moa target rock. Two clicks up and the next two shots landed solidly on the target. What was going on!!!
Tried again at 2500 yards and this time I pulled the magnification power back so I had a wider field of view. I beleive I dropped back to 20x instead of the 60 I was on earlier spotting the shots. This tine I did see the bullet impact. It was roughly 40 yard to the right???? He took another shot and this time the impact was about the same to the right but 30 yards low as well......
The last shot of the day was 20 yards low and a few yards to the left. Extremely poor consistancy.
Looking over the numbers, his rifle should have held super sonic velocity to 2450-2500 yards so what was the problem. I decided to unpack Black Sunshine and try it at this range. My load was the 300 gr SMK loaded to 3420 fps. Dialed up and first shot was about 2 moa low. Held up one more line on the NP-R2 reticle and on the second shot hit the rock. To be fair, the third shot landed just over the rock but the fourth shot did break the top edge of the rock.
It was late in the day so we decided to pull out and come back the next weekend. We loaded up a bunch of fresh ammo, checked muzzle velocity, cleaned the rifles and loaded up shooting bench and steel targets to do much more testing. We set up gongs at 2000, 2200, 2300, 2400 and 2500 yards.
Set up at 2000 yards. On the 20" round gong his rifle shot very well. Once dialed in it easily held three shots on the 1 moa gong... I then tried my Kahn with similiar results but admittedly, his rifle is more accurate then mine by around 1/4 moa at this range pretty consistantly. Still both were very consistant and accurate with predictable bullet tracking.
Next up was 2200 yards. Again, his rifle was dead on with the dial ups from 2000 to 2200 yards. First three shots landed on steel which in this case was my 18"x36" gong.
My rifle did pretty well putting two of three shots on the gong but again, it was clear his rifle was the better shooter. I then pulled out Black Sunshine and she proved more then up to this range.
Next was 2300 yards after the rifles cooled. My brothers did very well again, putting three out of five shots on steel with the two misses landing JUST off the gongs. My 338 Kahn however did not perform well at all. In fact shots flew very wide. Out of five shots fired, three came within 1 moa of the gong with no misses but two others landed very wide making a group that would be measured at around 5-6 moa. So at 2200 yards, the rifle was easily under 1 moa but at 2300 yards it was a 5-6 moa rifle......
Black Sunshine performed just as well as it had at 2200 yards. making it relatively easy to hit steel at this range in the good conditions we were shooting at.
Next up was 2400 yards. My brothers rifle started to show its limits here as it started performing just as mine had at 2300 yards. Now a rifle that was easily inder 3/4 moa at 2300 yards was not printing 4-5 moa groups. He did however get two shots on steel but he did have 6 misses as well.
Black Sunshine did much better with 4-5 shots on steel.
At 2500 yards. My 338 Kahn was shooting groups that had to be measured in yards and three shots were not even witnessed with impacts. My brothers repeated his performance from shooting at this range before.
Black sunshine again, performed very well, putting 4-7 shots on steel at this range with all misses being very close to steel.
It was clear that my rifle had a limit of around 2200-2250 yards with the 300 gr SMK loaded to 2850 fps. My brothers was allowing about 100 yards more reach with his roughly 100 fps higher muzzle velocity. When things went bad as far as bullet stability, things REALLY went bad quickly as far as group size growing dramatically.
In seeing this, I was curious how far my 338 Allen Magnum would reach. We found some target rocks at what we measured to be 2600, 2700 and 2800 yards away. At 2600 yards, the 338 AM was consistant and predictable. At 2700 yards, there was a noticable drop off in accuracy but shot placement was still consistant and predictable it was clear we were on the fringes. At 2800 yards, consistancy was way off the norm and predictability on scope adjustments was going away quickly. To the point it was clear that the rifle was not useful at this range for precision shooting.
These tests started a fever if you will to push the limits of extreme range consistancy and with the help from my good friend Richard Graves we did extensive testing with the 338 RUM, 338 Edge, 338 Lapua, 7mm AM, 300 RUM, 338 Xpress and my big 338 AM and 375 AMs.
The chamberings that offered the longest reach with consistant predictable shot placement were the 7mm AM with the 200 gr ULD RBBT loaded to 3300 fps with its BC of .920 and my 338 AM with the 300 gr SMK loaded to 3400 fps. Both of these offered 2700 yard reach but admittedly, the 7mm was very difficult to spot impacts and could really only be seen with good light conditions.
Then Richard sent me down some very aggressive 265 gr Aluminum tipped RBBT prototype bullets made with a very heavy jacket. I tested them in my 338 Allen Magnum and got a velocity of 3550 fps in one of my Xtreme Heavy Sporter rifles. At this velocity the drop testing showed a BC of around .88 to get trajectory matched up with exbal, which stated this load should stay supersonic past 3100 yards.
We set out to test this and set a 20" round gong up at a measured 3008 yards. Again, admittedly, I needed all of the MOA adjustment in the 5.5-22 NF scope and then still had to use the reticle for hold over to this range but once we got the hold figured out, the rifle went three for three on a 20" gong so that is 3/4 moa at 3000 yards.
The conditions were ideal, no mirage as it was a cool cloudy day, no wind, ideal. Later that day we tried to repeat the tests but it had cleared up and there was noticable mirage. In those conditions, even with no wind, I was only able to get one shot on steel out of five fired simply because of the mirage.
It was clear however that in good conditions, this load was a legit 3000 yard reacher.
We also tested these bullets in the smaller 338 magnums and it was the same results there, roughly adding 300 yards to the maximum effective range of the chamberings used.
In testing the 338 Lapua with 300 gr SMK, it to is around a 2300 yard rifle in ideal conditions. With the most aggressive BC bullets out there it could be extended to 2600 yards in my testing. At 9000 ft elevation, 2700 yards could be possible but again, that is with extremely high BC bullets.
Again, I have tested this dozens of times and it always holds true. Admittedly, I have never used the Senar bullets much, have no desire to, their BC is only marginally higher then the 300 gr SMK and performance tests have been done over and over again proving they are not a good game bullet so I have no desire to test them but I have tested the 300 gr SMK with a very similiar BC and a 265 gr AT RBBT with a vastly superior BC and have no doubt what the Senar would do and that would be perform very similiar to the SMK.
If your calling me out because of my comments, please do not read more into them then what I have said. I am not saying this was not possible, I am just saying that making three hits at this range in three shots is so unlikely it boarders on extremely hard to believe.
The guy on sniper hide only proved my point for me. Why do you need to have me duplicate this test again, this guy just did it and I am sure I would get identical performance as he just did which is inconsistant shot placement at this range with a 338 Lapua.
He did prove its possible to hit a 3 foot gong one time out of at least 5 shots but he also proved his rifle and his ability was not up to making three hits in a row.......
Do we need to prove it again?
Its been proven time and time again. I am glad the brit killed those guys. I have no doubt it happened, my only claim is that I find it very hard to believe he went three for three, that has been my only point all along, DO NOT READ MORE INTO IT THEN I HAVE SAID!!
