TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

Phil Rizzo · Mar 2, 2024

All of them can fail to do "what they are supposed to" due to faulty construction, or a freak event.
And that's obviously what happened to your buddy when a soft hollow nose with a poly tip and high impact velocity penciled through an animal of that size and thickness without expansion.
Not a common occurrence. I shoot .284 140&160's from 3000-3250mv into everything from 100lb doe to 300lb double-plated boar, have for what seems like 25yrs now and haven't had the bad luck he did. It's been a pretty good sample size down here with liberal limits and too many pigs.
Keep using what works, until it doesn't. That's what us humans seem to do.

FEENIX · Mar 2, 2024

Ucsdryder said:
If there was a better constructed bullet I might shoot it. But I don't think there's a better constructed killer than a 180 eldm.

This guy made it 2 feet…vertically. View attachment 410591

Bad arse Nathan Foster speaks highly of the 180 ELD-M. I enjoy watching his hunting videos, and his credibility is supreme.

heat_and_fam · Mar 2, 2024

Phil Rizzo said:
Keep using what works, until it doesn't. That's what us humans seem to do.

Most any bullet will kill if you put it in the vitals. Most all designs can hold together long enough to bust a shoulder to reach those vitals given the appropriate impact velocity. I think folks get too wrapped up in bullet choice. They all work. I shoot the highest BC/accurate projectile I can load for a given rifle, usually that's a match bullet, more often than not a Berger hybrid. Gives me the best chance to put it where it counts in less than ideal conditions…works for me.

Ucsdryder · Mar 2, 2024

FEENIX said:
Bad arse Nathan Foster speaks highly of the 180 ELD-M. I enjoy watching his hunting videos, and his credibility is supreme.

There's one dirty "hunting" bullet in this group of beautiful target bullets.

Phil Rizzo · Mar 2, 2024

heat_and_fam said:
Most any bullet will kill if you put it in the vitals. Most all designs can hold together long enough to bust a shoulder to reach those vitals given the appropriate impact velocity. I think folks get too wrapped up in bullet choice. They all work. I shoot the highest BC/accurate projectile I can load for a given rifle, usually that's a match bullet, more often than not a Berger hybrid. Gives me the best chance to put it where it counts in less than ideal conditions…works for me.

i'm putting my money on HT's as you see. Year one went good with 153's at 2995 mv.
shots were from 90 to 380, so no long range experience

Outdrmn · Mar 2, 2024

heat_and_fam said:
Most any bullet will kill if you put it in the vitals. Most all designs can hold together long enough to bust a shoulder to reach those vitals given the appropriate impact velocity. I think folks get too wrapped up in bullet choice. They all work. I shoot the highest BC/accurate projectile I can load for a given rifle, usually that's a match bullet, more often than not a Berger hybrid. Gives me the best chance to put it where it counts in less than ideal conditions…works for me.

Yep, Eldm's for the 7-08's and Berger 215 for the 300wm.

cajun · Mar 2, 2024

FEENIX said:
Bad arse Nathan Foster speaks highly of the 180 ELD-M. I enjoy watching his hunting videos, and his credibility is supreme.

Nathans ballistic research is first rate.

fordy · Mar 3, 2024

Gday Ucsdryder

Ucsdryder said:
24 pages say otherwise… But we all know where your allegiance lies…

Really
please explain how & what I put up is wrong

or @ the minimum misleading??

I asked to pull my post apart not dismiss with the when all goes right
Or is it you don't understand what's actually required in the form of terminal ballistics to get consistent results

So let's try this

Please hone in on my post numbers 313 ,332 & where I'm wrong in my assumptions / experiences that over penertration is better than under & please just don't give a flippant reply/remark as that helps no one

I also note I have not put up a target bullet or hunting bullet as I stated it's what the actual design does that is paramount not the name attached to it please take note of that & especially in regards to that heart shot elk

So I await your answer to explain to me or others more importantly how a pill that has a maximum penertration length that if it can't reach vitals is superior to a pill that has penertration that surpasses the length of penertration required or @ a minimum reach the vitals on the quater away shots or higher resistance impacts ( I've not even gone to the levels I test to as I'm sticking with a fairly standard shot angle that I've seen & was in that heart shot elk as that's right on the boarderline as I pointed out or once again am I mistaken

& once again a throw away line helps no one or a flippant remark so let's get to that 162eldm or if you want the other ones I put up but I'd say it's probably better to stay with the 162 eldm as you seem to have a issue with mine so upto you im cool either way

Just incase you've missed my point & If you would like we can pull some hunting bullets apart that don't make the grade against some of the target bullets that preform better as maybe that is what you want to hear

but it won't contradict what I stated previously as it's what the pills capabilities are not its name ( please take note of that once again )

So yes if that is where my allegiance lies I'm guilty of trying to show what people need to consider in their bullet choices & the shortfalls that will eventually show up & once again the 162 eldm showed it's lack of penertration capabilities where a slightly different pill lighter or heavier I don't care along with dosent Matter once again if it's a target or hunting projectile it's WHAT IT DOES THAT MATTERS but the 162 eldm has show a lack of penertration capability on that elk shot angle & why I pointed it out

Let's discuss the first part first & then we can delve deeper where ea design is better suited to certain species & not a blanket statement of target or hunting bullets as then we are getting places

Now I also note the video from Nathan & thanks for posting that feenix as I've not seen that also helps explain a little more to those who want to see the wood in the trees

Caveats I've not used the 180eldm
But potentially & more than likely a far better choice than the 162 eldm ( twist appropriate of course)

But to Nathan's video & his pictures also state lighter body weights !!! Hmmm that's interesting to put those up as must mean something in terminal ballistics

The first 2 animals on that video are cns so while spectacular the results are somewhat shaded imo as cns are ones that can be misleading impacts & one i personally don't take a lot of notice of as you don't get the critter reaction & impact to tip is non existent but that's me & the way I do it Nathan has his which is cool & definitely served him well

Moving on I assume the following are in the ball park of 2800 impact for the 180 yard shot & 2200 for the790 yard shot ( take note of those impacts & the critter size & resistance it's important but once again imo )

The 840 yrd shot 10/11 sec to tip & 30 sec to Nathan's call & impact would be in the range roughly of 2100
The 970 yard was around 15sec to tip & no Nathan's call but when camera was back on the goat , it's positioned had somewhat moved so we don't actually know the time of impact to tip or a minimum Nathan's call
So that one is up in the air a little but to me that pill preformed well & nothing really concerns me on those size critters , impacts & resistances with that pill in the video

Oh also The 510 yard shot was around 7sec till Nathan's call & around 2300 impact all assuming altitude

Overall that pill preformed well but now we need to move to the different resistances & penertration lengths these require and while I've only had extremely extremely little contact with Nathan ( nothing ballistically other maters ) I'm sure he would give a better choice of pill than the 162 eldm on elk if he saw those pictures from post # 329 & his advice maybe the 180 eldm or something like a partition or something else to cover the angles that present in the field

I've got no idea but I'm pretty certain he would look @ it from what a pills capable of not what it's named

Cheers

heat_and_fam · Mar 3, 2024

fordy said:
Gday Ucsdryder

Really
please explain how & what I put up is wrong or @ the minimum misleading??

I asked to pull my post apart not dismiss with the when all goes right
Or is it you don't understand what's actually required in the form of terminal ballistics to get consistent results

So let's try this

Please hone in on my post numbers 313 ,332 & where I'm wrong in my assumptions / experiences that over penertration is better than under & please just don't give a flippant reply/remark as that helps no one

I also note I have not put up a target bullet or hunting bullet as I stated it's what the actual design does that is paramount not the name attached to it please take note of that & especially in regards to that heart shot elk

So I await your answer to explain to me or others more importantly how a pill that has a maximum penertration length that if it can't reach vitals is superior to a pill that has penertration that surpasses the length of penertration required or @ a minimum reach the vitals on the quater away shots or higher resistance impacts ( I've not even gone to the levels I test to as I'm sticking with a fairly standard shot angle that I've seen & was in that heart shot elk as that's right on the boarderline as I pointed out or once again am I mistaken & once again a throw away line helps no one or a flippant remark so let's get to that 162eldm or if you want the other ones I put up but I'd say it's probably better to stay with the 162 eldm as you seem to have a issue with mine so upto you im cool either way

Just incase you've missed my point & If you would like we can pull some hunting bullets apart that don't make the grade against some of the target bullets that preform better as maybe that is what you want to hear but it won't contradict what I stated previously as it's what the pills capabilities are not its name ( please take note of that once again )

So yes if that is where my allegiance lies I'm guilty of trying to show what people need to consider in their bullet choices & the shortfalls that will eventually show up & once again the 162 eldm showed it's lack of penertration capabilities where a slightly different pill lighter or heavier I don't care along with dosent Matter once again if it's a target or hunting projectile it's WHAT IT DOES THAT MATTERS but the 162 eldm has show a lack of penertration capability on that elk shot angle & why I pointed it out

Let's discuss the first part first & then we can delve deeper where ea design is better suited to certain species & not a blanket statement of target or hunting bullets as then we are getting places

Now I also note the video from Nathan & thanks for posting that feenix as I've not seen that also helps explain a little more to those who want to see the wood in the trees

Caveats I've not used the 180eldm
But potentially & more than likely a far better choice than the 162 eldm ( twist appropriate of course)

But to Nathan's video & his pictures also state lighter body weights !!! Hmmm that's interesting to put those up as must mean something in terminal ballistics

The first 2 animals on that video are cns so while spectacular the results are somewhat shaded imo as cns are ones that can be misleading impacts & one i personally don't take a lot of notice of as you don't get the critter reaction & impact to tip is non existent but that's me & the way I do it Nathan has his which is cool & definitely served him well

Moving on I assume the following are in the ball park of 2800 impact for the 180 yard shot & 2200 for the790 yard shot ( take note of those impacts & the critter size & resistance it's important but once again imo )

The 840 yrd shot 10/11 sec to tip & 30 sec to Nathan's call & impact would be in the range roughly of 2100
The 970 yard was around 15sec to tip & no Nathan's call but when camera was back on the goat , it's positioned had somewhat moved so we don't actually know the time of impact to tip or a minimum Nathan's call
So that one is up in the air a little but to me that pill preformed well & nothing really concerns me on those size critters , impacts & resistances with that pill in the video

Oh also The 510 yard shot was around 7sec till Nathan's call & around 2300 impact all assuming altitude

Overall that pill preformed well but now we need to move to the different resistances & penertration lengths these require and while I've only had extremely extremely little contact with Nathan ( nothing ballistically other maters ) I'm sure he would give a better choice of pill than the 162 eldm on elk if he saw those pictures from post # 329 & his advice maybe the 180 eldm or something like a partition or something else to cover the angles that present in the field I've got no idea but I'm pretty certain he would look @ it from what a pills capable of not what it's named

Cheers

please dispute this claim…'all bullets kill if they hit the vitals'. In the end, nothing else matters and you can't find me a match bullet that can't make it 8" to the heart/lungs.

I'd be willing to bet, as much as you claim "lack of penetration capability" that no amount of money would get you to stand on the other side of an elk while someone puts one through the ribs, heck, even the shoulder.

At the end of the day…what does it matter to you? Shoot what you like, I can promise, while all opinions are worthwhile to be shared, yours won't change a single mind on this thread, nor will mine.

Gday.

FEENIX · Mar 3, 2024

cajun said:
Nathans ballistic research is first rate.

Yes, Sir!

FEENIX · Mar 3, 2024

Ucsdryder said:
There's one dirty "hunting" bullet in this group of beautiful target bullets.

SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXY!

fordy · Mar 3, 2024

Gday heat and fam

heat_and_fam said:
please dispute this claim…'all bullets kill if they hit the vitals'. In the end, nothing else matters and you can't find me a match bullet that can't make it 8" to the heart/lungs.

I'd be willing to bet, as much as you claim "lack of penetration capability" that no amount of money would get you to stand on the other side of an elk while someone puts one through the ribs, heck, even the shoulder.

At the end of the day…what does it matter to you? Shoot what you like, I can promise, while all opinions are worthwhile to be shared, yours won't change a single mind on this thread, nor will mine.

Gday.

For what it's worth Gday is a welcome , im guessing your not meaning that

Thankyou for showing why I post & some of the match bullet shooting people will I'm sure explain to you where your post is flawed as you might not be as aggressive to those guys or should we all go out shooting 223 & 50 gr match pills as they surely will get 8in of total penertration

pass the hat around I will take you up on that offer , I'll let you know when enough is in the pot for me to consider it enough & clear all my debts to the bank is my figure & I'll let you know when that limit is reached but I'll let you know what I owe in a pm if your willing ibut I'll choose the shooter let's make that clear
I'm deadly serious put it up & I will take you up & guess it would need to be a captive elk as have no chance of getting behind a wild one so the cost of that will be yours also

I also post because I care for the person & helping them make better choices which in turn is better for the critter & for the person I'll leave that to a individual if they gain anything out of my posts or not

If no one likes my posts look away or block me it's that simple

You'll get no argument from me & for that I do wish you a good day ( has a different meaning behind it ) but do look forward to doing business
Cheers

heat_and_fam · Mar 3, 2024

fordy said:
Gday heat and fam

For what it's worth Gday is a welcome , im guessing your not meaning that

Thankyou for showing why I post & some of the match bullet shooting people will I'm sure explain to you where your post is flawed as you might not be as aggressive to those guys or should we all go out shooting 223 & 50 gr match pills as they surely will get 8in of total penertration

pass the hat around I will take you up on that offer , I'll let you know when enough is in the pot for me to consider it enough & clear all my debts to the bank is my figure & I'll let you know when that limit is reached but I'll let you know what I owe in a pm if your willing ibut I'll choose the shooter let's make that clear
I'm deadly serious put it up & I will take you up & guess it would need to be a captive elk as have no chance of getting behind a wild one so the cost of that will be yours also

I also post because I care for the person & helping them make better choices which in turn is better for the critter & for the person I'll leave that to a individual if they gain anything out of my posts or not

If no one likes my posts look away or block me it's that simple

You'll get no argument from me & for that I do wish you a good day ( has a different meaning behind it ) but do look forward to doing business
Cheers

you refused to address my claim, but demand others address yours?

You seem to wanna make a bold claim and imply that it's gospel yet won't stand behind that claim, literally. Tells me all I need to know.

nobody is saying shoot .223 50gr pills at else, stop being childish.

And I've seen the OP around on many a forum, Im fairly confident he doesn't need your help in bullet selection. He's done well for himself in the field and has plenty of pics to prove it.

Gday

memtb · Mar 3, 2024

My only comment on this topic is……we owe it to the animal to use the bullet that offers the highest potential for a clean kill at whatever the range at the animal is shot!

Simple using the bullet that may be the most accurate or has the highest BC on an animal…."be damned" the terminal performance on said animal "doesn't cut the mustard" with me. Those that feel otherwise have little respect for the animal…..and I for them!

The bullets that I described in the aforementioned text are great for and very likely designed for use on inanimate objects…..and should be limited for such! JMHO like it or not! memtb

TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

Phil Rizzo

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FEENIX

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heat_and_fam

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Ucsdryder

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