Son wants a long range high speed rig Which cartridge?

Frog4aday said:
My initial thought for your son (13 years old) in a LONG action, but with either a mag or a non-mag bolt face (since you have access to either) was the .25-06 Rem. Mild recoil, flat shooting, and a great hunting round. But I don't know what "long range" means to you and your son (500 yards? 800 yards? 1200 yards.)

When you said you were down to the .257 Weatherby or the .264 Win Mag, then I favored the .257 Weatherby since you don't currently have any .25 caliber rifles. It would 'fill in' the gap for you nicely. Plus it's great for hunting out to 600 yards (deer/antelope; need to be closer to shoot elk and moose.)

But if LONG RANGE is a higher priority, or BIGGER game is on the menu (elk/moose) then the .264 Win Mag will provide higher BC bullets and seem the 'better' choice for a long range hunting rig.

I did like the suggestion @Andrew Massi made earlier to consider the .240 Weatherby if you were really interested in a 'Bee cartridge. The recoil would be lighter than anything discussed so far, but it would be a laser on deer/antelope sized game and, if twisted correctly, it can fire some very high BC bullets, too.

At 13, I sure didn't want to get beat up every time I tripped the sear on my rifle. I think the .240 Weatherby would be my 'pick' (assuming I can't 'sell' you on the .25-06 Rem still!)
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Well, i have time and am still shopping. What twist rate and length do you recommend for the 25-06?
 
If you really are interested in the 'long range' stuff, then I'd go with a 1:7.5 twist so you can fire some of the 'heavy-for-caliber' bullets (EXAMPLE: 131 grain BlackJack; about 0.66 G1 BC or 0.33 G7 BC). You could still fire 'normal' weight bullets for hunting, varmints, etc. assuming you don't go down too far in weight.

As for barrel length, I would go 26" on the .25-06 Rem to maximize it's velocity and minimize muzzle blast for your son, while still being portable/manageable enough. It'll help with recoil, too.

The .25-06 just amazes me with it's performance-to-kick ratio. If you didn't tell a person what they were shooting, the on-game performance would have them 'convinced' they shot some heavy/fast magnum. It just cranks out the speed and smacks game hard, all without beating the crud out of you. I like that. If I was 13 y/o, I'd REALLY like that!
 
Frog4aday said:
If you really are interested in the 'long range' stuff, then I'd go with a 1:7.5 twist so you can fire some of the 'heavy-for-caliber' bullets (EXAMPLE: 131 grain BlackJack; about 0.66 G1 BC or 0.33 G7 BC). You could still fire 'normal' weight bullets for hunting, varmints, etc. assuming you don't go down too far in weight.

As for barrel length, I would go 26" on the .25-06 Rem to maximize it's velocity and minimize muzzle blast for your son, while still being portable/manageable enough. It'll help with recoil, too.

The .25-06 just amazes me with it's performance-to-kick ratio. If you didn't tell a person what they were shooting, the on-game performance would have them 'convinced' they shot some heavy/fast magnum. It just cranks out the speed and smacks game hard, all without beating the crud out of you. I like that. If I was 13 y/o, I'd REALLY like that!
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Brass would be cheaper here too. I'd go 25-06AI in this case. It will get pretty close to the 257 WBY from what I've heard.
 
One more thought...if you're into handloading and after something really uncommon and fast, why not a 6mm Mach 4/240 incinerator? It's just a 7mm rem mag/.264 win mag case necked down to 6mm, shouldn't be too much of a pain to load for and would work great with your existing action, no mods necessary. And it'll be fast and has higher bc bullets available than the 25s. 105 rdf with the .57 bc around 3500 ought to clean house. Or the 90 grain game changer with the .48 bc around 3800?
 
Calvin45 said:
One more thought...if you're into handloading and after something really uncommon and fast, why not a 6mm Mach 4/240 incinerator? It's just a 7mm rem mag/.264 win mag case necked down to 6mm, shouldn't be too much of a pain to load for and would work great with your existing action, no mods necessary. And it'll be fast and has higher bc bullets available than the 25s. 105 rdf with the .57 bc around 3500 ought to clean house. Or the 90 grain game changer with the .48 bc around 3800?
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Sounds like a neat round. Inaccurate about high BC bullets though.

.257 Blackjack, 131 gr., .345 BC there are no 6mms close.
 
TX Badger said:
Sounds like a neat round. Inaccurate about high BC bullets though.

.257 Blackjack, 131 gr., .345 BC there are no 6mms close.
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Blackjack bullets themselves list that bullet at .330 g7. Nosler's newish 115 rdf, hornady's 110 atip, sierras 110 smk are all over .300 g7. Not as high as the blackjack but it seems a tad dramatic to say there are no 6mms close. Additionally, that blackjack is the only game in town for high bc .25s, a custom bullet which I'm sure is excellent but whose future availability is not nearly as certain (remember what happened with wildcat bullets and Kirby Allen's beautiful monsters?). There are tons of high bc 6mms that can be had pretty much anywhere any time. Add to this the weight difference and subsequently higher velocities attainable with any given case capacity and it's a no-brainer, unless you're just really enamoured with the quarter bore (nothing wrong with that either - I'm the same way about the .277 cal when I know the big 6.5s are "better"). More than a neat round in my opinion.
 
Calvin45 said:
Blackjack bullets themselves list that bullet at .330 g7. Nosler's newish 115 rdf, hornady's 110 atip, sierras 110 smk are all over .300 g7. Not as high as the blackjack but it seems a tad dramatic to say there are no 6mms close. Additionally, that blackjack is the only game in town for high bc .25s, a custom bullet which I'm sure is excellent but whose future availability is not nearly as certain (remember what happened with wildcat bullets and Kirby Allen's beautiful monsters?). There are tons of high bc 6mms that can be had pretty much anywhere any time. Add to this the weight difference and subsequently higher velocities attainable with any given case capacity and it's a no-brainer, unless you're just really enamoured with the quarter bore (nothing wrong with that either - I'm the same way about the .277 cal when I know the big 6.5s are "better"). More than a neat round in my opinion.
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Nothing you said is incorrect except the BC you quoted was an early conservative number on a run before the meplat was refined. They now run between .345 & .350. They really can keep up with any 6.5 now.

I do think that these guys will stick around. 25cm brass is in production to support this bullet. Many barrel makers have stepped up with fast twist .257 options... and if they were to falter there is a good chance the big brother who is producing them would add them to their line.

I am admittedly enamored with quarter bores. I have always thought that it was the caliber best suited to be used for low recoil flat varmint shooting 85-115 bullets or bumped up to big game with heavier bullets. The only thing that was missing was this high bc 131gr option and now we have it. But, only time will tell. One sure way to defeat this whole movement would be to shy away from it until one of the bigger bullet makers get around to the .257. The guys at Blackjack deserve our support, without it they are wasting their time. Then we would be back at square one bitching that there are no good options out there.
 
TX Badger said:
Nothing you said is incorrect except the BC you quoted was an early conservative number on a run before the meplat was refined. They now run between .345 & .350. They really can keep up with any 6.5 now.

I do think that these guys will stick around. 25cm brass is in production to support this bullet. Many barrel makers have stepped up with fast twist .257 options... and if they were to falter there is a good chance the big brother who is producing them would add them to their line.

I am admittedly enamored with quarter bores. I have always thought that it was the caliber best suited to be used for low recoil flat varmint shooting 85-115 bullets or bumped up to big game with heavier bullets. The only thing that was missing was this high bc 131gr option and now we have it. But, only time will tell. One sure way to defeat this whole movement would be to shy away from it until one of the bigger bullet makers get around to the .257. The guys at Blackjack deserve our support, without it they are wasting their time. Then we would be back at square one bitching that there are no good options out there.
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Didn't realize that about the refined meplat. A lot of manufacturers seem to be doing that (thinking of the new line of smk and the Nosler rdf in particular). Perhaps these folks could whip up some killer 270s in time as well ;)
 
Calvin45 said:
Didn't realize that about the refined meplat. A lot of manufacturers seem to be doing that (thinking of the new line of smk and the Nosler rdf in particular). Perhaps these folks could whip up some killer 270s in time as well ;)
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Do you not like the Berger EOLs?
 
TX Badger said:
Do you not like the Berger EOLs?
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No beef with the eols whatsoever, but at present that 170 is the only thing out there (both wildcat and matrix don't seem to be available anymore). Additionally, the bc on that 170, while greater by far than anything stabilized in the standard 10 twist, didn't seem to be what could be. Mainly I just think a few more options would be nice. Very few manufacturers makes truly high bc 25s or 27s because nobody builds rifles that stabilize them. Nobody makes said rifles because there's no bullets to utilize. And round it goes. To be honest I'd love to see even a few target/match type bullets for the standard 10 twist 270. There's the Berger's and the 135 smk, but I'd love to see a 130-150 grain rdf or eld-m or something super slippery like what these blackjack bullets are producing.
 
Blackjack did it the right way by having the correct twist barrels made and selling them too. Plus the the .257 falls more in the PRS/Target caliber range so that helped volume a lot. The problem with 130-150 .277 bullets is you can shoot those weights in .264 and get better bcs.
 
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