Factory Ammo Quality

While sitting with a friend discussing the arrival of his new build, a custom 6.5 x 284 the issue of chamber dimension etc. came up. How long a throat, what jump etc. The smith was a participant in this conversation. He took a loaded round with him from a commercial box of reputable manufacture that had basically the dimensions, and components my buddy was looking for. The smith called the next day, and said the bullet was not what he thought to be a quality bullet. My Friend, and I were a bit taken by this, how could that be? After all they cost 67.00 bucks a box of 20. The problem was the round had 17 thousandths of run out. So we thought maybe the box got banged or something, we should check them all for a fair shake. I took them home to find the best run out at 3 thousandths and the worst at 12 with a sinclair guage. Most where at 10 thousandths run out. The package was not marked from impact or any other visible damage. We took a sample of Nosler new 6.5 x 284 and measured, and found them to be around 2 thousandths. Acceptable.

So what should be expected from a factory round? I don't have any real razzle dazzle equipment, but I can load all day long at 2 or less. Anything above 2 to 5 I use for foul and sighters. We have shot this ammo in other guns with not amazing results it was ok. Never checked run out before. Maybe my ocd is acting up?

toliver said:

While sitting with a friend discussing the arrival of his new build, a custom 6.5 x 284 the issue of chamber dimension etc. came up. How long a throat, what jump etc. The smith was a participant in this conversation. He took a loaded round with him from a commercial box of reputable manufacture that had basically the dimensions, and components my buddy was looking for. The smith called the next day, and said the bullet was not what he thought to be a quality bullet. My Friend, and I were a bit taken by this, how could that be? After all they cost 67.00 bucks a box of 20. The problem was the round had 17 thousandths of run out. So we thought maybe the box got banged or something, we should check them all for a fair shake. I took them home to find the best run out at 3 thousandths and the worst at 12 with a sinclair guage. Most where at 10 thousandths run out. The package was not marked from impact or any other visible damage. We took a sample of Nosler new 6.5 x 284 and measured, and found them to be around 2 thousandths. Acceptable.

So what should be expected from a factory round? I don't have any real razzle dazzle equipment, but I can load all day long at 2 or less. Anything above 2 to 5 I use for foul and sighters. We have shot this ammo in other guns with not amazing results it was ok. Never checked run out before. Maybe my ocd is acting up?

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Ideal is .002"-.003". I try to keep my handloads under .002". Below is an example of my load and when measured and corrected (adjusted) with Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Reloading :: Metallic Reloading :: Tools & Gauges :: Lock-N-Load® Ammunition Concentricity Tool



[ame]https://youtu.be/cCrU3vvHxmM?t=105[/ame]

Factory ammo has to be loaded with generous tolerances to fit mass production rifles.

The best factory ammo I have shot over the years has been Hornady, Norma, Nosler, and Remington's premium line.

A buddy of mine in South Africa is working on a concentricity gauge and dustom die set guranteed to give you .005 thousands for consistency. He needs five empties from your rifle and about a month to put the dies together with each being custom made to each rile.

You'll invest a tidy sum between the two for for the guys looking to shoot ridiculously small groups consistently it's the wave of the future.

If anyone is interested let me know and I"ll see where he is on being ready to export.

He's planning on setting up an LLC here in the US to market them and once he does Myself and my younger brother will be overseeing it..

Too be honest I'm sometimes shocked at how well some factory guns shoot factory ammo for a fraction of what I've spent...

Frank in the Laurels said:

Too be honest I'm sometimes shocked at how well some factory guns shoot factory ammo for a fraction of what I've spent...

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Roger that. Same here, but that's like finding a 'four leaf clover".

WildRose said:

Factory ammo has to be loaded with generous tolerances to fit mass production rifles.

The best factory ammo I have shot over the years has been Hornady, Norma, Nosler, and Remington's premium line.

A buddy of mine in South Africa is working on a concentricity gauge and dustom die set guranteed to give you .005 thousands for consistency. He needs five empties from your rifle and about a month to put the dies together with each being custom made to each rile.

You'll invest a tidy sum between the two for for the guys looking to shoot ridiculously small groups consistently it's the wave of the future.

If anyone is interested let me know and I"ll see where he is on being ready to export.

He's planning on setting up an LLC here in the US to market them and once he does Myself and my younger brother will be overseeing it..

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Cant wait to check those out. Hopefully you can do a piece for us here when it's ready for the public. I get that factory ammo needs to be a bit sloppy. However this stuff wouldn't chamber in a rifle without serious effort. Lapua brass and a berger bullet. I guess I expected more for the money. The plan was just to end up with brass anyways, but if a bullet is seated and has deflection the brass is going to need some work.

toliver said:

Cant wait to check those out. Hopefully you can do a piece for us here when it's ready for the public. I get that factory ammo needs to be a bit sloppy. However this stuff wouldn't chamber in a rifle without serious effort. Lapua brass and a berger bullet. I guess I expected more for the money. The plan was just to end up with brass anyways, but if a bullet is seated and has deflection the brass is going to need some work.

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What factory ammo did you have that problem with?

If it were me I'd call the manufacturer and tell them the problem. My bet is that they'll ask you to return it to them and in exchange you'll get more back than you sent in.

I took several brands and types of factory ammo and checked them out a few months ago. All but one brand had far more run-out than any loads I've ever made on my own. Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, HSM, you name it. The only one that kept to .002 or less was Nosler. Others, as you have found, were up to .015.

Having done that I'm surprised that a couple of those horrible run-out loads are easily sub-moa in some of my rifles. It makes you truly wonder how much the run-out number affects accuracy...not that I'm going to pay any less attention to it when handloading.

Dr. Vette said:

I took several brands and types of factory ammo and checked them out a few months ago. All but one brand had far more run-out than any loads I've ever made on my own. Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, HSM, you name it. The only one that kept to .002 or less was Nosler. Others, as you have found, were up to .015.

Having done that I'm surprised that a couple of those horrible run-out loads are easily sub-moa in some of my rifles. It makes you truly wonder how much the run-out number affects accuracy...not that I'm going to pay any less attention to it when handloading.

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Like many of the long range guys, I have done lots of concentricity test on both factory loads and hand loads. My results were not surprising, the factory loads were all over the place. different methods of hand loading produced different results also, so I started trying to refine my process and depending on the case prep, die adjustment, die type and my consistency I found a range of from.000 run out to .007(The worst with an occasional .008 when I was not carful).

After shooting ammo with up to .006 TIR if found that ammo loaded with less than .002 run out
performed the best, .002 to .004 was OK, and anything more than ,004 was a waste of time.
I also tested the rounds I straightened and found that the ones straightened to around .002 were not as good as the ones loaded to .002 run out, (I guess straightening takes something out of the neck grip and effects the accuracy)

The ones that I was able to get to within .0005 shot well but again not as well as the ones loaded to this concentricity.

So I worked on my process to try and keep all of my loads in the .000 to .002 thousandths range
for best accuracy. I have proven to Myself that ammo loaded to .000 run out is the best, (No big surprise). so if I am trying to find out what a rifles potential is I sort nothing but the perfect rounds for this test. (It still doesn't help Me if I don't do my part, but it helps when I do).

Just my findings and opinion

J E CUSTOM

I agree with you.

I'll sort brass to get wall thickness and concentricity as low as possible before I even start load workup. Depending on the brand, 100 once-fired cases might get 20-50 usable ones after culling. Some will still be usable later on, but I start with the best and then go from there.

J E Custom said:

Like many of the long range guys, I have done lots of concentricity test on both factory loads and hand loads. My results were not surprising, the factory loads were all over the place. different methods of hand loading produced different results also, so I started trying to refine my process and depending on the case prep, die adjustment, die type and my consistency I found a range of from.000 run out to .007(The worst with an occasional .008 when I was not carful).

After shooting ammo with up to .006 TIR if found that ammo loaded with less than .002 run out
performed the best, .002 to .004 was OK, and anything more than ,004 was a waste of time.
I also tested the rounds I straightened and found that the ones straightened to around .002 were not as good as the ones loaded to .002 run out, (I guess straightening takes something out of the neck grip and effects the accuracy)

The ones that I was able to get to within .0005 shot well but again not as well as the ones loaded to this concentricity.

So I worked on my process to try and keep all of my loads in the .000 to .002 thousandths range
for best accuracy. I have proven to Myself that ammo loaded to .000 run out is the best, (No big surprise). so if I am trying to find out what a rifles potential is I sort nothing but the perfect rounds for this test. (It still doesn't help Me if I don't do my part, but it helps when I do).

Just my findings and opinion

J E CUSTOM

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What brand/type of dies did you find gave you the best run out?

I shoot only factory ammo, after reloading for 40 yrs. Yes some of it is much better than others. I never worry about mic'ing anything. I just shoot. Its a lot more interesting shooting than pumping that handle. And testing diff brands of ammo is kind of fun

Jeremyc said:

What brand/type of dies did you find gave you the best run out?

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Redding Stipe bushing dies and Hornady new dimension.

I have had good luck with RCBS but they are harder to adjust perfect.

Just Me

J E CUSTOM

J E Custom said:

Redding Stipe bushing dies and Hornady new dimension.

I have had good luck with RCBS but they are harder to adjust perfect.

Just Me

J E CUSTOM

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I've had more trouble with RCBS does over the years than all others combined.

Hornady, Lee, Redding (old, old Redding) and of course Dillon have served me very well for several decades.

I have yet to personally use any of the customs from PT&G or whiddon but from what I've read and heard over the years they both do good work.