First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

[Scot E]

It would be enormously helpful if some of the FFP guys would get a list of FFP optics and their reticle specs, I've found a good number of them but some are just a bugger to find. So far the only one that comes close to what seems to be the thin reticle standard of the NP-R1 is the Premier 5-25 then the next thinnest I can find is the Vortex HS LR 6-24 in FFP and then the Premier 3-15, from there it just gets ridiculous and I found some up at .250 MOA. Can't find the break down for the SWFA SS HD scopes but that is one I'd like to know because of the price range.

A few I know about.

Premier Gen 2 XR (in Premier scopes only) .025 MIL/.085 MOA
Bushnell Tactical G2- .03 MIL/.1 MOA

I am pretty sure I have the SS 5-20 specs at home. Will post those later.

SS 5-20 .05 MIL/.17 MOA main line thickness, .015 MIL/.05 MOA MQ Dot size

Scot E.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I didn't realize you were so very sensitive jeff. I wasn't aware that any of that post would hurt your feelings.

Greg, I don't know what the burr is you got under your saddle but Jeff is about one of the most humble straight shootin men you will ever meet, if you do meet him. IMO the above post is quite unnecessary and unproductive.

 

[orkan]

Greg, I don't know what the burr is you got under your saddle but Jeff is about one of the most humble straight shootin men you will ever meet, if you do meet him. IMO the above post is quite unnecessary and unproductive.

I don't ride horses.

... and for jeff to take exception to my post pointing out S&B's deficiencies and claiming personal attack, that is just ridiculous.

 

[Scot E]

I have heard good thing about the S&B PMII from another shooter that does indeed shoot well past 2000 yards. My trust in him and his credibility has me looking them over. He chooses the S&B over the Premier and has tested them both extensively. Seems the Premier failed the PSR contract testing with some construction issues. And the glass prescription for both were written by the same engineers. So the problem was with the rest of the scope not glass.



Jeff

Jeff,

I would encourage you to go to snipershide and read over some of the recent issues many are having with S&B. Lowlight, the owner of "the hide" has used S&B for years and pretty much stated he won't buy one again until they get their crap together. I would personally be really hesitant. They are having all kinds of issues, turret, parallax, all kinds of bad stuff, especially for the price they charge.

I feel for Premier, they have had some tough times and I think that has hurt their scope rep when their quality was never an issue. If their new relationship works out I feel confident they will be back at or near the top seat as far as top end optics are concerned. IF NF would just step up and give you a .0625 MOAR reticle you would never have to look elsewhere!

Scot E.

 

[westcliffe01]

I hate to see speculation, when this info is readily accessible on the web.
0.21MOA is the width of the reticle on the 4-16 and 0.18MOA on the 6-24
Neither of those number is a limiting factor to me. Yes it would probably help if both horizontal and the vertical actually stopped short of going all the way to the center (like a 1/4MOA gap each way for a 1/2 MOA "hole"). Perhaps if enough of us ask for it, Vortex will listen.

My Vortex Dealer has just told me that Reticle on the 4-16x50 FFP is .06mm which according to Spec sheets meens that it will Cover 6mm AT 100yds, and the 4-16x50 SFP is 0.03mm which meens the Reticle at 100yds Does Cover 3mm of the Target,

So at 400yds 6mm will cover around an Inch which is not good if your trying to keep a tight group and at 500 thats nearly an Inch and 1/4, So although its not good to loose sight of your rounds on the Target If you think that this only has a serious effect at 100 Possibly 200 and maybe 300yds when you sighting in your scope But really at 100yds is only just the width of a .308 hole anyway, So the SFP covers 3mm does have the slight edge in this case, But after getting all the specs on the top brand scopes etc these Vortex are way in front of the rest because their nearest competitors Reticles are a bit more than Double the thickness

So thankyou again to The Person who told me about them here,

John

 

[Scot E]

Scot, Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Vortex actually has one offered in the PST. Most others are running twice or more as thick with maybe the Premier being at, or just under .1 moa. My fear is then what it will look like on 5X. I am afraid it would not be good in timber.

Jeff

I don't think so anymore. They had an earlier reticle that was thinner but I think they stopped offering it. I think the current PST offerings are close the MOAR in thickness.

The razor is the one that has the open center reticle which is nice. That may have been what you were thinking.

Scot E.

 

[Broz]

IF NF would just step up and give you a .0625 MOAR reticle you would never have to look elsewhere!
Scot E.

I remain optimistic about this being possible in the future. I and others in higher chairs than I have talked to them about the need. I am pushing for just dropping the thickness of the floating crosshair. Might be the best of both worlds? But it could end up simply as a "MOAR thin"

But yes, either would be nice if the ATACR is what we hope it is. I will know shortly as I will be looking through one mounted up by the end of the week and sending lead very soon.

Jeff

 

[mildot1960]

A few I know about.

Premier Gen 2 XR (in Premier scopes only) .025 MIL/.085 MOA
Bushnell Tactical G2- .03 MIL/.1 MOA

I am pretty sure I have the SS 5-20 specs at home. Will post those later.

SS 5-20 .05 MIL/.17 MOA main line thickness, .015 MIL/.05 MOA MQ Dot size

Scot E.

Its Like I said the Vortex SFP is .03 MIL and the FFP is .06 MIL so for fairly small targets at Long Range the SFP would be the better choice,

Both of these two Scopes are Lazer Etched But as I said before when sighting in at 200yds the FFP Reticle will cover 12mm of the Target and that is with the 0.06 MIL thickness which meens you will have alot of trouble seeing a 5.5mm hole of the .308 ,

But what is worse is this would be totally useless on the smaller rounds of 223, 243 and maybe the 270,

I have noticed this Problem when I was sighting in a Ruger in ,223 @ 200yds a few years back but being young I did'nt give it a second thought and that was using A 30-30 Reticle in a 3-9x40,

But in the real World if we took these figures and thought of them every time we bought a Scope we would all be Shooting .50 Cals just so we could scope it in, Next time you go to sight in your Rifles at the range Just check out how much these Values are noticable because it would be great to have the Facts right here on this thread,

Thanks, John

 

[Scot E]

Its Like I said the Vortex SFP is .03 MIL and the FFP is .06 MIL so for fairly small targets at Long Range the SFP would be the better choice,

Both of these two Scopes are Lazer Etched But as I said before when sighting in at 200yds the FFP Reticle will cover 12mm of the Target and that is with the 0.06 MIL thickness which meens you will have alot of trouble seeing a 5.5mm hole of the .308 ,

But what is worse is this would be totally useless on the smaller rounds of 223, 243 and maybe the 270,

I have noticed this Problem when I was sighting in a Ruger in ,223 @ 200yds a few years back but being young I did'nt give it a second thought and that was using A 30-30 Reticle in a 3-9x40,

But in the real World if we took these figures and thought of them every time we bought a Scope we would all be Shooting .50 Cals just so we could scope it in, Next time you go to sight in your Rifles at the range Just check out how much these Values are noticable because it would be great to have the Facts right here on this thread,

Thanks, John

Why are you so concerned about seeing 308 or 223 holes? Because they are going to be your new aimpoint? If you just care about about spotting shots just view the target away from the reticle. Your aimpoint should be the same regardless of where the bullets are hitting, ie on the X. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

Do some reading on bracketing the target with your reticle. It is amazing how accurate you can be even with a larger reticle and/or larger aim point.

Scot E.

 

[mildot1960]

I hate to see speculation, when this info is readily accessible on the web.
0.21MOA is the width of the reticle on the 4-16 and 0.18MOA on the 6-24
Neither of those number is a limiting factor to me. Yes it would probably help if both horizontal and the vertical actually stopped short of going all the way to the center (like a 1/4MOA gap each way for a 1/2 MOA "hole"). Perhaps if enough of us ask for it, Vortex will listen.

WestCliffe, I'm NOT Speculating Anything AT ALL, work out the Math on that for a second,

IF they were that Thick they would be .21 = 21MIL at 100yds and that 210MIL at a 1000yds that is 8 and a 1/4 inches at a 1000yds.

Now how the Heck can we see A 1/2" MOA Hiding behind a21mm Reticle

1/2"= 12.7mm approx, 21mm= 13/16ths,

I Repeat, I Phone the Company that Supplies the British Army And the British Police Force and He looked it up on his computer just to make sure and he said that they are .03 and .06

Now weather Those drawings are accurite as per newer models I dont know, But I will Call him again and get the Spec Sheet that he is Quoting from,

If they were .21 that meens they would measure .00827" (just over 8 thou) I think,

When a Person from a multi million Dollar Company Who supplies the Armed Forces gives me the good Oil on a product I have now reason to call him a Liar.

this thread is getting out of hand now, I am the messinger Thats all

 

[mildot1960]

WestCliffe here's where you might of misunderstood my Post

3.6mil, and 1 moa/// 3.6 devided by 1.047= 3.438395415

3.438395415x 0.06=0.206303724 rounded off IS .21 or 0.21 MOA FFP Model

Like I said they are 0.06 MIL, NOT 0.06 MOA

3.438395415 X 0.03= 0.103151862 MOA for the SFP Model.

I hope this helps because the pictures you have posted are In MOA, When I was Explaining the Figures In Mrad's/mm,

blessin's. john

 

[mildot1960]

A few I know about.

Premier Gen 2 XR (in Premier scopes only) .025 MIL/.085 MOA
Bushnell Tactical G2- .03 MIL/.1 MOA

I am pretty sure I have the SS 5-20 specs at home. Will post those later.

SS 5-20 .05 MIL/.17 MOA main line thickness, .015 MIL/.05 MOA MQ Dot size

Scot E.

It seems that these Premier Scopes are the finest Reticle's and are about as good as they Get It's no wonder they are knocking B&S and Leupold etc right off their Perch,

thanks for the info

john

 

[rick523]

I remain optimistic about this being possible in the future. I and others in higher chairs than I have talked to them about the need. I am pushing for just dropping the thickness of the floating crosshair. Might be the best of both worlds? But it could end up simply as a "MOAR thin"

But yes, either would be nice if the ATACR is what we hope it is. I will know shortly as I will be looking through one mounted up by the end of the week and sending lead very soon.

Broz,
Does this mean you now have your LRKM? Looking forward to your reviews.

 

[Broz]

Broz,
Does this mean you now have your LRKM? Looking forward to your reviews.

Not yet. I have another new rifle in 338 EDGE I am going to use to review the ATACR. My review of the LRKM in 338 Terminator +P will be later.

Jeff