For those who NEVER clean their bore, or almost never

[Tac-O]

Ryan, depending on the caliber, you may have one heck of a job getting that barrel clean after 250 rounds. I have worked on some barrels for days with that much shooting.

Of course, for 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards you can get by without much cleaning.

It's a .30-06 I've been shooting 150gr bullets with staball 6.5. it's mostly been a mid-level charge, with a handful of max charges. Considering how dirty the powder is, I probably have alot of work to do. After running a couple patches of hoppes, I could see the yellowish baked on carbon starting to build up in the corners by the lands near the muzzle.

 

[keithcandler]

That is copper, not carbon. JB on a stiff Issio or Montana plastic brush may get that fouling out in a hurry. 30 cal's are easy on barrels till you start shooting R#15.

Dirty burnng of the staball may be the copper agent used in the powder to reduce the copper fouling.

 

[Blackhawk]

There's a few people around who absolutely never clean their bore. There's a member on another forum who apparently works at some ballistics facility that fires hundreds of thousands of rounds annually during testing. They test barrels in some type of mechanical rest and find the true accuracy of barrels through thousands of rounds through those barrels. He says that he stopped cleaning the bores and found that there is no change in accuracy of the barrel through it's life. On his own rifles, he'll have fired upwards of 5,000 rounds through the bore of his Tikka without every having put a patch through it and it still shoots small groups. This all applies to functional field rifles... rifles for hunting or military applications. This is not in reference (I don't think) to benchrest competition barrels where you're trying to put every bullet in the same hole. So of course, there's the issue with pitting, etc. Well, if it still shoots then why worry about it? The whole point of doing this is to have a barrel that is consistent and reliable,, being able to put that first shot in the kill zone without worrying about fouling your bore, not having to put a lot of rounds through the bore to refoul it, etc. You're not worried about maintaining sub half moa groups, you just want the rifle to shoot roughly MOA so you can put the bullet into a 6" zone at 600 yards. I've started to embark on this journey, after having been in the habit of cleaning my bore every 20 rounds. Why? Because my gun is primarily for hunting and the enjoyment of shooting and handloading, and worrying about my bore isn't fun! Sure, if I had my gun shooting 1/4 moa that would be nice. But, I don't plan to shoot at game passed 500 yards, so 1" groups are fine with me. I do still worry about pitting and rust, even though my barrel is stainless.

Is there anyone here that NEVER cleans their bore? If you enjoy the life of neglecting your bore, do you do anything at all to protect the bore between shooting sessions to put your mind at ease? What are your experiences with the consistency of your barrel if you subscribe to this kind of madness?

Well every one has an opinion on this matter, and I respectfully agree to disagree with this gentleman's statements!
1) Has he ever heard of lead fouling?
2 Has he ever heard of copper fouling?
3) Has he ever ran a bore scope down his barrel?
4) Has he examined his rifle barrel using the bore scope for evidence of rust ?
5) Has he ever examined his rifle chamber ?
6) has he ever examined his bolt face for carbon and debris build up?
I can practically guarantee his answers would result in a resounding NO.

Years ago there was an unwritten law which simply stated says " If you take care of your weapon, your weapon will take care of you ! "
This is a credo by which I live by then as well as now!
In closing I agree with Mr. Ryan 's comments as posted above.

 

[Tac-O]

That is copper, not carbon. JB on a stiff Issio or Montana plastic brush may get that fouling out in a hurry. 30 cal's are easy on barrels till you start shooting R#15.

Dirty burnng of the staball may be the copper agent used in the powder to reduce the copper fouling.

It wasn't copper; I know what copper fouling looks like. I used sharp shootr accelerator and tactical advantage with a combo of nylon brushes to get the foam going and bronze to get the abrasive action.

 

[keithcandler]

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[keithcandler]

You are being redirected...

This post is typical of the many people that I have taught what bore scopes find, and how their shooting improves once they clean their guns. Amazing what a very small investment will do to improve your shooting.

Following is a post on Accurate Shooter from a guy that just purchased a Teslong bore scope.


"Was looking around for a little and decided to get the Teslong Borescope. Got it in the mail and set it up. It was a little finicky with setup but mainly, first have it on and working with the camera app running then connect to the camera wifi.

OH MAN, I am seeing the errors of my ways. From Carbon buildup, to copper buildup, to some rust on my muzzleloaders! I was just proved to be a total slacker when it comes to cleaning rifles. Luckily I do have some that aren't horrible.

Spent the rest of the night just running CLP down the barrels to oil them up and will be going to town one by one cleaning them up."


"I agree,
I bought one a year or so ago, changed up my cleaning routine and all my barrels looked great....... then I shot some of the smallest groups at 600 and short range I have ever shot. It did make a difference on target. Then I started slacking...... had a match a couple of weeks ago and shot ok..... just ok. After cleaning I decided to take a peek down the bore as one of my Dasher barrels is now has about 1500 rounds down the tube. Guess what.... it was gross!
I am a slacker

is there a weekly meeting for that?"

The Teslong is my friend.
CW

Highly recommend that Teslong. Will be completely revamping my cleaning routing based on that one purchase. "

"
What it is showing is that these ideas that

"I run three patches of XYZ and my barrels are clean"

And

"Such and such cleaning ruins barrels"

Are just misinformation.

Nothing like seeing it for yourself on the borescope and the target. For yourself!!"

" picture is supposed to be a clean barrel at least patches were indicating a clean barrel also found what was the beginning of carbon ring.Cant find the picture after a proper cleaning.JB and Kroil was only thing that would get the carbon out!I did find pic of carbon ring or what was carbon ring "

" It is a great tool. Just don,t panic and order a new barrel.Just my two cents Tommy Mc "

 

[blueprairiedog]

This post is typical of the many people that I have taught what bore scopes find, and how their shooting improves once they clean their guns. Amazing what a very small investment will do to improve your shooting.

Following is a post on Accurate Shooter from a guy that just purchased a Teslong bore scope.


"Was looking around for a little and decided to get the Teslong Borescope. Got it in the mail and set it up. It was a little finicky with setup but mainly, first have it on and working with the camera app running then connect to the camera wifi.

OH MAN, I am seeing the errors of my ways. From Carbon buildup, to copper buildup, to some rust on my muzzleloaders! I was just proved to be a total slacker when it comes to cleaning rifles. Luckily I do have some that aren't horrible.

Spent the rest of the night just running CLP down the barrels to oil them up and will be going to town one by one cleaning them up."


"I agree,
I bought one a year or so ago, changed up my cleaning routine and all my barrels looked great....... then I shot some of the smallest groups at 600 and short range I have ever shot. It did make a difference on target. Then I started slacking...... had a match a couple of weeks ago and shot ok..... just ok. After cleaning I decided to take a peek down the bore as one of my Dasher barrels is now has about 1500 rounds down the tube. Guess what.... it was gross!
I am a slacker

is there a weekly meeting for that?"

The Teslong is my friend.
CW

Highly recommend that Teslong. Will be completely revamping my cleaning routing based on that one purchase. "

"
What it is showing is that these ideas that

"I run three patches of XYZ and my barrels are clean"

And

"Such and such cleaning ruins barrels"

Are just misinformation.

Nothing like seeing it for yourself on the borescope and the target. For yourself!!"

" picture is supposed to be a clean barrel at least patches were indicating a clean barrel also found what was the beginning of carbon ring.Cant find the picture after a proper cleaning.JB and Kroil was only thing that would get the carbon out!I did find pic of carbon ring or what was carbon ring "

" It is a great tool. Just don,t panic and order a new barrel.Just my two cents Tommy Mc "

A picture is worth a thousand words

 

[speedengineer]

I personally am not experienced enough to have an opinion either way. But let's play devils advocate for a minute....

Just because you can purchase a bore scope, take a look, and see nasty dirty carbon and copper, doesn't necessarily mean anything. It may mean a lot, and I'm not saying it doesn't.

For comparison, if you shoved that borescope down the spark plug hole on your car you'd see tons of nasty carbon layers on the piston and combustion chamber walls. A person without automotive experience may immediately assume their engine is running poorly. However, it is expected to have carbon all over, and it can be running 100% strong and healthy.

Rifles aren't cars, and perhaps it's a worthwhile endeavor to clean them out frequently. But arriving at the conclusion that a rifle needs cleaning simply because it looks dirty is incorrect. If you correlate that it's shooting poorly or suffering damage due to being dirty, then that is a good reason to clean frequently...

 

[blueprairiedog]

I personally am not experienced enough to have an opinion either way. But let's play devils advocate for a minute....

Just because you can purchase a bore scope, take a look, and see nasty dirty carbon and copper, doesn't necessarily mean anything. It may mean a lot, and I'm not saying it doesn't.

For comparison, if you shoved that borescope down the spark plug hole on your car you'd see tons of nasty carbon layers on the piston and combustion chamber walls. A person without automotive experience may immediately assume their engine is running poorly. However, it is expected to have carbon all over, and it can be running 100% strong and healthy.

Rifles aren't cars, and perhaps it's a worthwhile endeavor to clean them out frequently. But arriving at the conclusion that a rifle needs cleaning simply because it looks dirty is incorrect. If you correlate that it's shooting poorly or suffering damage due to being dirty, then that is a good reason to clean frequently...

Just hope that carbon doesn't cause stochastic detonation and crack the pistons at the ring groves in that dirty engine.

 

[ntsqd]

Or screw up the HCCI's ign event timing.

Speed has a point though. How many times has it been reported that a rifle needed one to possibly many "fouling shots" before it settled down and held a respectable group?
I recall a post not all that long ago about someone getting a borescope and being horrified by what he saw. Cleaned the rifle until it looked clean in the scope. And then had to fire ~20 rounds to get back both his POI and small group size.
Now maybe that barrel needed the fire one, clean it, fire one, clean it break-in regimen and it wouldn't need all of those fouling shots. And maybe not, maybe it will only ever be consistent and accurate after those fouling shots.

 

[keithcandler]

That is a lot of fake news! I have a LOT of custom barrels and factory, none take more than two shots to foul the barrel after a down to bare metal cleaning. Even the fouling shots do not go more than 5/8" out of the group!

 

[ntsqd]

So you're accusing those posters of lying about their rifle's performance based solely on the performance of yours?

I've never experienced the phenomenon, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it's impossible.

 

[Tac-O]

I don't think it's impossible, but does seem very odd. I've seen it talked about most with stainless Tikka bores. They're supposedly typically very smooth and have a tough time collecting fouling, almost as if the fouling it collects is tiny bit by bit to where it's enough to decrease accuracy until there's enough deposited in the bore. I don't know.

It's also a possibility that what some of these people are experiencing is that they did load development on a dirty, well fouled bore. @J E Custom has mentioned this at least a couple times in other threads. If you plan to shoot your rifle clean, do load development clean. If you plan to shoot your rifle dirty, do load development dirty.

 

[keithcandler]

I don't think it's impossible, but does seem very odd. I've seen it talked about most with stainless Tikka bores. They're supposedly typically very smooth and have a tough time collecting fouling, almost as if the fouling it collects is tiny bit by bit to where it's enough to decrease accuracy until there's enough deposited in the bore. I don't know.

You need a bore scope.

I recall a post not all that long ago about someone getting a borescope and being horrified by what he saw. Cleaned the rifle until it looked clean in the scope. And then had to fire ~20 rounds to get back both his POI and small group size.
Now maybe that barrel needed the fire one, clean it, fire one, clean it break-in regimen and it wouldn't need all of those fouling shots. And maybe not, maybe it will only ever be consistent and accurate after those fouling shots.

this is how fake news gets shared all over the net. You read or heard about this or that.

I started shooting competitively in 1968, and stated shooting p. dogs in the late 70's, rock chucks, jack rabbits, and ground squirrels. I went through many, many thousands of rounds a year. I have had access to a bore scope since the late 80's. My p. dog hunting partner and I used to order 10 Hart barrels at a time.

I have looked down the bore of a few tikka's and they can not hold a candle to the quality of a Brux, Lilja, Krieger, Hart, Shilen, Bartline, etc.

If you are serious about your accuracy, buy a bore scope, clean your barrel, measure the over all length of the bullet to the lands, frequently and maintain that distance as the leade grows. Chronograph the most accurate load tested, and over time when the bore wears, you will have to add a few tenths more powder to bring up the pressure to where it once was.