Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want to live in a hoa with you brother, lol. Carry on boss... rules rules rules. I get it.
Would you prefer a 1" vertical string group or a 1" horizontal string group?
- Thread starter Les in Wyoming
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
Len's house, Len's rules. If we don't like the rules there are plenty of other places on the net to spread your "wisdom".
As a long time member reading this forum since a few months after it went live and that reads far more than I post, here is my recollections from the past online environment and my opinion on the subject. I am sure others that have been here from back then recall what the general atmosphere was like on hunting forums to basically anything over 300-400 yds.
First let's start with the posts from Len himself back when I first started reading this forum. Did not join formally for yrs.
www.longrangehunting.com
LR hunters were literally being attack on any and all traditional hunting forum they dared to post about tatakingame past 400 yds. Without fail the thread would be side tracked by someone or a group of someone's that felt some moral imperative to force their beliefs irregardless of facts onto everyone. Len established this site to allow those in the LR hunting to have a place open to all ideas of LR hunting without the torches and pitch fork crowd.
Their is a difference between discussions and arguments. Discussions are centralized around facts. Arguments are about emotions. The latter is immune to facts. It's akin to arguing with PETA about the "ethics" of eating meat. It's utterly pointless and would explode as it has nothing to do with facts between like minded.
Point being "like minded" meaning people that already believe in and support long range hunting. 500+ with top end capped by situation skills equipment. There is no debate about the ethics of long range hunting, in and of itself, within like minded people. That leaves only the ethics of taking a specific or type of shot. That was not the issue for the most part. It was whether long range hunting itself was ethical and it was ugly.
I will post plenty of threads where technically ethics of types of shots and hunting was debated on thus site and allowed. It was a internal debate of LR hunters "like minded" such as hunting bedded animals or sighter shots etc. So this absolute rule of biblical finality is simply not supported by the facts of threads on thus forum from the past.
Lots has changed since early 2k. The tech and what's it's capable of has grown geometrically. Back in 2k you had to drive bullets with serious vel to make up for the bc. The bullets of choice where smk, ABs, Amax we cutting edge. We had no wide spread large manf producing LRAB, TTSX, LRX, HH, CEB, ELDs, etc.... There was not L.r hunting YouTube videos or TV shows like Meateater and others taking L.R shots. You did not have bans on certain gear because it made LR shots (Sig BDX) too easy to the point of bothering those in belief of fair chase or whatever the offical term is. It was about a shot being to easy at L.R. kind of flies on the face of what is/was the main ethical argument against L.R hunting.
IMO, there is a significant difference between what @Alex Wheeler is saying and what the rule was intended to address. Telling someone, that wants to take a 1k shot for his bucket list, that he is going to need to practice at the ranges he plans to shoot or he has a very high likelihood of missing or just wounding a now unrecoverable elk. If that's his plan I am not going to help support it. That vs 1k+ or whatever range shots in general are unethical because............ Quite different. The prior one (Alex's) is just commonsense.
We have posts and discussions all the time that this cartridge or setup is not ideal for a specific range or size animal. The difference is its not about ethics of the L.R shot vs facts about performance. Not much difference between that and what Alex is stating. That's no different then warning off a hunter that states he can only hold for a 1moa@100yd but wants to hunt with that skill set @ 1500yd. It's facts involved that you need to practice at the ranges you shoot and once outside the max point blank range that becomes more critical. That could be argued as ethics. But when does ethics walk over the line to just basic common sense? Something thats so obvious it's generally accepted by the community as a whole?
This is akin to trying to support zero tolerences rules in schools for firearms when a 10yr old is expelled because he draws a pic of a firearm. Zero tolerence is removes intellect and reason. It's for computers not people.
So if there is this iron clad no tolerence rule of ANYTHING with even a hint of ethics please explain these threads given the ethics rule was from the get go?
www.longrangehunting.com
Starting at post #22 https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/946-yard-cow-elk-pics.14561/
www.longrangehunting.com
www.longrangehunting.com
That took about 3 mins to find with a simple search of "bedding animals" I could find many more with about 15 mins of work. Let's relax a bit. This is not the 20th century anymore when ideas were different in the majority.
I am sure if Len or the mods have an issue a PM will be sent.
If Alex is not "like minded" proponent of LRH then I do not know who is.
First let's start with the posts from Len himself back when I first started reading this forum. Did not join formally for yrs.
Anti-Long range hunters
Did you ever notice that on many other hunting and shooting sites, you are labelled unsportsman like if you even mention long range hunting. I just saw a post on another site where a guy stated that no shots should be taken over 400 yards because it shows a lack of respect for the game. It's...
LR hunters were literally being attack on any and all traditional hunting forum they dared to post about tatakingame past 400 yds. Without fail the thread would be side tracked by someone or a group of someone's that felt some moral imperative to force their beliefs irregardless of facts onto everyone. Len established this site to allow those in the LR hunting to have a place open to all ideas of LR hunting without the torches and pitch fork crowd.
Their is a difference between discussions and arguments. Discussions are centralized around facts. Arguments are about emotions. The latter is immune to facts. It's akin to arguing with PETA about the "ethics" of eating meat. It's utterly pointless and would explode as it has nothing to do with facts between like minded.
Point being "like minded" meaning people that already believe in and support long range hunting. 500+ with top end capped by situation skills equipment. There is no debate about the ethics of long range hunting, in and of itself, within like minded people. That leaves only the ethics of taking a specific or type of shot. That was not the issue for the most part. It was whether long range hunting itself was ethical and it was ugly.
I will post plenty of threads where technically ethics of types of shots and hunting was debated on thus site and allowed. It was a internal debate of LR hunters "like minded" such as hunting bedded animals or sighter shots etc. So this absolute rule of biblical finality is simply not supported by the facts of threads on thus forum from the past.
Lots has changed since early 2k. The tech and what's it's capable of has grown geometrically. Back in 2k you had to drive bullets with serious vel to make up for the bc. The bullets of choice where smk, ABs, Amax we cutting edge. We had no wide spread large manf producing LRAB, TTSX, LRX, HH, CEB, ELDs, etc.... There was not L.r hunting YouTube videos or TV shows like Meateater and others taking L.R shots. You did not have bans on certain gear because it made LR shots (Sig BDX) too easy to the point of bothering those in belief of fair chase or whatever the offical term is. It was about a shot being to easy at L.R. kind of flies on the face of what is/was the main ethical argument against L.R hunting.
IMO, there is a significant difference between what @Alex Wheeler is saying and what the rule was intended to address. Telling someone, that wants to take a 1k shot for his bucket list, that he is going to need to practice at the ranges he plans to shoot or he has a very high likelihood of missing or just wounding a now unrecoverable elk. If that's his plan I am not going to help support it. That vs 1k+ or whatever range shots in general are unethical because............ Quite different. The prior one (Alex's) is just commonsense.
We have posts and discussions all the time that this cartridge or setup is not ideal for a specific range or size animal. The difference is its not about ethics of the L.R shot vs facts about performance. Not much difference between that and what Alex is stating. That's no different then warning off a hunter that states he can only hold for a 1moa@100yd but wants to hunt with that skill set @ 1500yd. It's facts involved that you need to practice at the ranges you shoot and once outside the max point blank range that becomes more critical. That could be argued as ethics. But when does ethics walk over the line to just basic common sense? Something thats so obvious it's generally accepted by the community as a whole?
This is akin to trying to support zero tolerences rules in schools for firearms when a 10yr old is expelled because he draws a pic of a firearm. Zero tolerence is removes intellect and reason. It's for computers not people.
So if there is this iron clad no tolerence rule of ANYTHING with even a hint of ethics please explain these threads given the ethics rule was from the get go?
Thoughts on the .257 Weatherby for these animals?
First off I'm no long range hunter as I haven't developed the skills yet, but it is a goal of mine to extend my range. So please bare with me if I ask some elementry questions. I am currently planning on having a .257 Weatherby built with a 28" SS Pacnor barrel in number 5 contour. Initially I...
Starting at post #22 https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/946-yard-cow-elk-pics.14561/
1410 yard cow elk
As some of you know, I drew the same late season cow elk tag this year that Old Bear had three years ago. Well, I finally got out to go do some hunting last week and to put it shortly, we had great success. By we I mean my dad, 7mmrhb, and myself. This was a great blessing as my dad doesn't...
Blooded the 338 Lapua
Bought a Remington 700 LRP in 338 Lapua Magnum this summer. Added a Nightforce 20 MOA base and rings along with a Nightforce 5.5-22x56 NXS NP-R1. Worked up a load with the Sierra 300 gr. SMKs and 91.5 GRS. H1000. Load is shooting 2687 fps and grouping less than .5 MOA at 500 yds. Finally got...
That took about 3 mins to find with a simple search of "bedding animals" I could find many more with about 15 mins of work. Let's relax a bit. This is not the 20th century anymore when ideas were different in the majority.
I am sure if Len or the mods have an issue a PM will be sent.
If Alex is not "like minded" proponent of LRH then I do not know who is.
Typically in my experience, a vertical or horizontal shot string means you are "outside of the node" you can still have consistent groups but it will never pull together. As far as your concern regarding seating depth I would go back to your original loaded length where you had the most consistent group size and I would increase your powder charge .3 grains up at a time until you get your groups to pull together. Typically you will see your groups start to tighten up and see more of a clover leaf, and if you're on top of it will start to shoot in the same hole. You will chase your tail around and around with seating depth when most of the time it's just not enough powder to get your harmonics to line up.
Other things to consider is being OCD in your reloading process. Trim your brass all to the same length, I typically go for minimum overall case length in your reloading manual. Your brass will always grow so it will give you better ease of chambering and help eliminate a false sign of over pressure in your powder charges. Make sure you trim AFTER you full length size it, clean primer pockets, check your neck tension, anneal your brass if you have the capability of doing so. Try to have brass that weighs within 5 grains of each other, doesn't always happen depending on brand of brass, Nosler is notoriously bad about weight in my experience, and also very soft. Brass prep plays a major role in accuracy. Your micrometer is your best friend in this process and your scale. Patience and being methodical will pay huge dividends in group size.
As stated above I believe you will be shocked at how much simpler it is to get your load to tighten. Just my opinion.
Other things to consider is being OCD in your reloading process. Trim your brass all to the same length, I typically go for minimum overall case length in your reloading manual. Your brass will always grow so it will give you better ease of chambering and help eliminate a false sign of over pressure in your powder charges. Make sure you trim AFTER you full length size it, clean primer pockets, check your neck tension, anneal your brass if you have the capability of doing so. Try to have brass that weighs within 5 grains of each other, doesn't always happen depending on brand of brass, Nosler is notoriously bad about weight in my experience, and also very soft. Brass prep plays a major role in accuracy. Your micrometer is your best friend in this process and your scale. Patience and being methodical will pay huge dividends in group size.
As stated above I believe you will be shocked at how much simpler it is to get your load to tighten. Just my opinion.
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