Why use a carbon wrapped barel?

[UniqueUserName]

I am ONLY reporting what the largest MOST ACCURATE metrology lab IN THE WORLD DECIDED ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO!!!

BEFORE

99% OF YOU HAD TOUCHED OR KNEW WHAT CARBON FIBER WAS..... OR USED..... OR KNEW HOW IT WORKED....

FOR ME IT JUST MEANT 10 YEARS LATER I COULD HAVE A 300 WIN MAG 10LB TOTAL WEIGHT MARK 248 MOD 1 REPLICA IN THE WOODS WHERE MY ISSUE M24 IN PRE MARK 248 WAS 18 LBS LEAVING THE WIRE....

AND 1/2 MOA AT 1000 YARDS AT 10LBS VS 1MOA AT 1000YARDS AT 18LBS....

CF TECHNOLOGY LOWERED THE WEIGHT OF A TITAIUM ALUMINUM MAGNESIUM YZ 250 FROM 235LBS TO 155LBS IN 1997!!!

CF IS MONUMENTAL

IN MAKING M4S WORK BETTER IN E&E AS WELL....

POINT PROVEN BACK IN 1992-1995 IN MULTIPLE PLACES AND TIMES

ASK AROUND TO GUYS WHOS LIVES DEPEND ON TRIGGER PULLING....

IT WORKS AND HAS ALMOST 30 YEARS....

I KEEP HEARING ARGUEMENTS SIMILAR TO ANTI TUPPERWARE GLOCKS IN 80S

AND

ANTI M16 VS GARAND GUYS IN 70S

PIC OUT 2 IDENTICAL PROFILE BARRELS

PUT THEM ON A SEMIAUTO

SHOOT THE CRAP OUT OF THEM SCIENTIFICALLY

Which barrel lasted longer moa?

Which barrel had a consistent cold bore shot Longer?

Which barrel had a longer distance to transgenic instability?????

You can not accept THE TRUTH AS LONG AS YOU WANT

BUT

IT WAS TESTED FACT ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO

You are trying to DISPROVE FACT WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE-ABILITY-DEPTH NOR TESTING FACILITIES....

GOOD LICK PILGRIMS

I don't believe that I have ever seen so many irrelevant strawman arguments packed into a single post ever. It's a ploy people use when they can't argue the real point.

I never said that CF doesn't make things lighter (not in terms of motorcycles, not in terms of barrels, not in terms of firearms)​

I never claimed that CF was not "monumental"​

I never even mentioned Glocks or that plastics or CF was inferior or Grands were better than M16s for that matter​

I never mentioned cold bore accuracy or any reference to accuracy, range, "transgenic instability"​

I haven't even said anything negative about CF wrapped barrels (I own a hunting rifle with one and am more than happy with it)​

You can argue against all of these points that nobody has made as long as you like, but none of them have any relevance to what you've been challenged on.

I, along with others, have challenged you specifically on your claims regarding the rate of cooling. You've failed, spectacularly, to substantiate those claims. You make analogies to toilet paper rolls and vague, obscure references to some 30-year-old, classified study that I'm not convinced that you have even read, much less comprehended in the context of thermal performance. But you never address the actual physics of it directly or cite anything remotely verifiable.

Let's stick to the point of the debate, can you substantiate your claims about improved cooling of CF wrapped barrels, based on the established concepts of heat-transfer or not?

No more strawman arguments.

 

[JAYgs8163]

 

[Randy Tidwell]

BR shooters will cut new crowns every 2-300 rounds, set back chambers a half inch 1-2 times on a 32" barrel if it's a shooter. Can you do any of these functions with the short shank/muzzle on a carbon barrel? No. This alone is enough reason to steer a BR or F shooter away from CF. Oh and weight? Aren't this rifles in that's 20-40# range? Why would they use the lightest composite for contour on an intended heavy gun? Let's be real. If they had an option of a 12# barrel that shoots in the 2s, and a 4# CF that shoots in the 2s, they're gonna choose the 12# Barrel every day.

Sorry to disagree,

BR shooters have very tight weight limits, 10.5 pounds for Light Varmint and Sporter Class. 13.5 pounds for Heavy Varmint Class. So weight is very much a concern. Same with F Class shooters, they have weight restrictions.

Second, very few BR and F class shooters set barrels back, not worth the effort. Did it twice, barrels shot well for maybe 100 rounds, then would not agg.

Re-crowning is a different issue, if you are cleaning correctly, you will wear out a barrel long before it needs any work to the crown.

I have yet to be at a BR match seen anyone successful using CF.

Competition shooter are just like racers, if something works better, no matter the cost they will use it! Racers are trying to shave thousands off their time, BR shooters are trying to shave thousands off an agg.

Show me a CF barrel that will agg (not one group) under .200", that's the average of five 5 groups.

CF barrels are prob ok for a hunting rifle, but in my humble opinion, you are leaving too much on the table. Same goes for fluted barrels, I have seen far more fluted barrels that will not shoot than successful ones. Especially factory flutes, yuck.

But, I drive nothing but Fords, most of my buddies drive Chevy's (fools, lol), bottom line it is personal preference.

 

[bdyal1972]

I don't believe that I have ever seen so many irrelevant strawman arguments packed into a single post ever. It's a ploy people use when they can't argue the real point.

I never said that CF doesn't make things lighter (not in terms of motorcycles, not in terms of barrels, not in terms of firearms)​

I never claimed that CF was not "monumental"​

I never even mentioned Glocks or that plastics or CF was inferior or Grands were better than M16s for that matter​

I never mentioned cold bore accuracy or any reference to accuracy, range, "transgenic instability"​

I haven't even said anything negative about CF wrapped barrels (I own a hunting rifle with one and am more than happy with it)​

You can argue against all of these points that nobody has made as long as you like, but none of them have any relevance to what you've been challenged on.

I, along with others, have challenged you specifically on your claims regarding the rate of cooling. You've failed, spectacularly, to substantiate those claims. You make analogies to toilet paper rolls and vague, obscure references to some 30-year-old study that I'm not convinced that you have even read, much less comprehended in the context of thermal performance. But you never address the actual physics of it directly or cite anything remotely verifiable.

Let's stick to the point of the debate, can you substantiate your claims about improved cooling of CF wrapped barrels, based on the established concepts of heat-transfer or not?

No more strawman arguments.

Do carbon fiber wrapped barrels cool faster???

OF COURSE THEY DO!!!

YOU THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN 100S OF AMERICAN BALLOSTICIANS-METROLOGISTS-BARREL MAKERS AND ENGINEERS 30 YEARS AGO?????

QUITE ARROGANT

CONSIDERING 6 COUNYRIES I KNOW OF INVESTED IN CARBON WRAPPED BARRELS FOR MILITARY USE

I saw it first hand on HUNDREDS OF BARRELS ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO

EVERY BARREL COMPANY SAYS YES TO IMPROVED COOLING

THOUSANDS OF TIER 1 TIER 2 GUYS SAY YES IT WORKS

PROVE US ALL WRONG

I DONT NEED TO PROVE GRAVITY!!!

YOU NEED TO PROVE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF ENGINEERS AND END USERS WRONG!!!!!!


JUST BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING DOES NOT MEAN ITS WRONG AFTER BEING USED ALMOST 30 YEARS


OR


JUST ADMIT YOUR A IGNORANT CURMUDGEON WHO TECHNOLOGY HAS PASSED BY

LIKE

GARAND VS M14

M14 VS M16

M16 VS M16A2

1911 45SCP VS GLOCK 17 9MM+P+

ALL STEEL VS CF WRAPPED STEEL

55BALL VS 62 STEEL PENETRATOR VS 77GRAIN OTM

BTW IN A 1-12 55GRN ROCKS IN 1-7 77GRN ROCKS IN A 1-7 62 GRN ROCKS GOING THROUGH GLASS


OR


BUY 2 IDENTICAL BARRELS 1 CF WRAPPED

FIRE 100 ROUNDS STRAIGHT ON EACH BARREL IN THE SAME ACTION

FIRING AT SAME TARGET BTW
WHAT BARREL HAD BETTER GROUP? CF OF COURSE


DO THE BOLT SPIT TEST ON THE LAST ROUND..........

ITS THAT EASY

PROOFS IN THE PUDDING!!!


NOW DO YOU HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND RESOURCES AND LOGIC TO COMPLETE AN UNBIASED HONEST COMPLETE TEST?????

BTW LASER TEMP GUN MEASUREMENTS OF: CHAMBER TEMP-MUZZLE TEMP-ACTION TEMP-BARREL SHANK WOULD BE WISE FOR INTERNAL TEMPS....

NIST CALIBRATED TRACEABLE LASER TEMP GUN WOULD BE ADVISABLE....

 

[brotherbear67]

Why is that guy still yelling^^^^. Someone give him a snickers and some Star Trek episodes to watch.

 

[UniqueUserName]

Do carbon fiber wrapped barrels cool faster???

OF COURSE THEY DO!!!

YOU THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN 100S OF AMERICAN BALLOSTICIANS-METROLOGISTS-BARREL MAKERS AND ENGINEERS 30 YEARS AGO?????

QUITE ARROGANT

CONSIDERING 6 COUNYRIES I KNOW OF INVESTED IN CARBON WRAPPED BARRELS FOR MILITARY USE

I saw it first hand on HUNDREDS OF BARRELS ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO

EVERY BARREL COMPANY SAYS YES TO IMPROVED COOLING

THOUSANDS OF TIER 1 TIER 2 GUYS SAY YES IT WORKS

PROVE US ALL WRONG

I DONT NEED TO PROVE GRAVITY!!!

YOU NEED TO PROVE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF ENGINEERS AND END USERS WRONG!!!!!!


JUST BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING DOES NOT MEAN ITS WRONG AFTER BEING USED ALMOST 30 YEARS


OR


JUST ADMIT YOUR A IGNORANT CURMUDGEON WHO TECHNOLOGY HAS PASSED BY

LIKE

GARAND VS M14

M14 VS M16

M16 VS M16A2

1911 45SCP VS GLOCK 17 9MM+P+

ALL STEEL VS CF WRAPPED STEEL

55BALL VS 62 STEEL PENETRATOR VS 77GRAIN OTM

BTW IN A 1-12 55GRN ROCKS IN 1-7 77GRN ROCKS IN A 1-7 62 GRN ROCKS GOING THROUGH GLASS


OR


BUY 2 IDENTICAL BARRELS 1 CF WRAPPED

FIRE 100 ROUNDS STRAIGHT ON EACH BARREL IN THE SAME ACTION

FIRING AT SAME TARGET BTW
WHAT BARREL HAD BETTER GROUP? CF OF COURSE


DO THE BOLT SPIT TEST ON THE LAST ROUND..........

ITS THAT EASY

PROOFS IN THE PUDDING!!!


NOW DO YOU HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND RESOURCES AND LOGIC TO COMPLETE AN UNBIASED HONEST COMPLETE TEST?????

BTW LASER TEMP GUN MEASUREMENTS OF: CHAMBER TEMP-MUZZLE TEMP-ACTION TEMP-BARREL SHANK WOULD BE WISE FOR INTERNAL TEMPS....

NIST CALIBRATED TRACEABLE LASER TEMP GUN WOULD BE ADVISABLE....

So your answer is "No.", you can't. Thanks for your candor!

I think we'll just leave it at that.

 

[bdyal1972]

So your answer is "No.", you can't. Thanks for your candor!

I think we'll just leave it at that.

Just observations WITHOUT DISCOUNTING THE REASONS 6 GOVRMENTS-DOZENS OF BARREL COMPANIES SAY THE TECHNOLGY WORKS!!!

SORRY I DONT HAVE A WHIYE PAPER FOR YOU!!!

BUY 2 BARRELS

REINVENT THE WHEEL

EARTH IS FLAT

SUN REVOLVES AROUND THE EARTH

MOON LANDING WAS FAKE

ETC ETC ETC

IGNORANCE IS BLISS

PROOF-CHRISTIANSON-BRUX-HEART-RODGERS

ALL WRONG

 

[VLD Pilot]

So does Bartlein weave the CF around the barrel or wrap it in sheets of CF? You have giving the me first answer I've been looking for.

I don't know the process they use. It's my first barrel and only chose Bartlein because I know how accurate there barrels are. The CFW barrels should be as accurate. Proof I'm sure make equally excellent barrels but I never had experience with there barrels to knows I have with Bartlein.

 

[CHRIS MCBRIDE]

It is same no matter what sport or hobbie .Got to have the latest and greatest no matter the facts. I have buddy who buys every new improved muzzle loader. My 25 year old Knight wolverine shoots as good or better and has killed more dear than all of his put together.

I drag race and the latest craze is only thing that will work runs wild in that sport. Some people have to buy new so as to make it look like their lack of skill is because of the old piece.

 

[Send it 284]

Same goes for fluted barrels, I have seen far more fluted barrels that will not shoot than successful ones. Especially factory flutes, yuck.

At the risk of derailing this clear and concise thread...
Could you explain the issues you've seen with fluted barrels, and how accuracy can be negatively effected?

 

[cboom]

At the risk of derailing this clear and concise thread...
Could you explain the issues you've seen with fluted barrels, and how accuracy can be negatively effected?

I would assume he is referring to the added stress to the metal from fluting. But IMO if it is stress relieved correctly it is a non issue.

 

[tacomHQ]

A daily fan of this site and always quite insightful.
God knows I have no wish to argue the Wrapped Barrels.... Though I will challenge what a steel barrel is. The term 3D has been used (like a club) and we think in 3D.
To those who do not know us - TACOMHQ- along with long range optics we produce a type of barrel. It is not in competition with Proof or any wrapped barrel. It is not a light weight barrel and certainly not a mountain gun. However, if a barrel 32 inches long that starts at a weight of 6.2 pounds, is pound for pound significantly stiffer, well over 300% more cooling surface interest you -look us up. WE do cool the chamber and barrel by both a huge surface area (>300%) and active air flow thru the barrel. Our 300NM does not show heat signs until well into the deep teens in a shooting string, cools very rapidly, shows consistently less group drift, less SD drift, less velocity drift than standard barrels... and longer life. You will see the only existing videos of complex computer simulations of a barrel whip and vibration. While we are typically known in ELR for our optics, teams are well into testing of our barrels along with 3rd party load development people and all - all - to date have noted that our barrels are an outstanding product. "The real deal" per Cal and Precision Rifle Blog (see video).
Loading development- 3rd party person after person note our barrels are among the easiest if not the easiest/most forgiving barrels to load to due to their stiffness and ability to shoot large width ladders and bullet weights. The term .416 Bench gun has been used to describe the accuracy achieved- and he has shot CF extensively.
You will also find our recoil event is different/less due to reduced vibration/whip. This was recently highlighted at K2M by a shooter running the exact same gun (.375 Cheytac- free fired/no shoulder contact) with the only difference being the barrel. Since it is a heat sink this same shooter (see video) was shocked at how cool the gun ran: in 10 shots the barrel raised from 72deg to 86deg as the high. At a recent Sniper Forum in Colorado are shot strings consistently ran 20-40rds with barrel temps being 10deg above ambient soak (Frank at Snipers Hide) with ambient static soak of 110deg and 117deg after the shot strings. A different technology. A different direction.
As a pure hunter I would not really care what happens at the 4th round-CF all of the way toting something around the mountains. Weight could be the over driving feature. However in the ELR arena CF barrels are rare- like endangered rare. What have these long range shooters not found or rather for what reasons do they also not shoot CF? These are real questions not argumentative semantics.
Fiber orientation, material interface, straightness of the bore, harmonics, recoil states, shot stability for all accuracy criteria...
Would I care what my accuracy is at 20rds, 50rds, 100rds in the field if my life depended on it? Yes. What is the difference of 1moa capable vs 1/2moa capable at the 20rd mark worth? 50rds? The race car.
This is not a Long Range Hunter light weight application, but the forum has covered a bunch of ground.
The pictured barrel is a .338- not chambered - 28" long raw-- 1.399dia. It will drop below 6.5lbs in a finished form.
As a fun note.... I will accept that challenge of building two barrels... testing heat, 20+shot strings, group size drift, SD drift, velocity drift, at least 4 bullet weights (.308 caliber - 168 thru 230's) and ladder spreads. A full barrel test of

performance.
TACOMHQ Structured Barrels

 

[Canhunter35]

Same reason people love a nice wood stock

 

[nksmfamjp]

Just observations WITHOUT DISCOUNTING THE REASONS 6 GOVRMENTS-DOZENS OF BARREL COMPANIES SAY THE TECHNOLGY WORKS!!!

SORRY I DONT HAVE A WHIYE PAPER FOR YOU!!!

BUY 2 BARRELS

REINVENT THE WHEEL

EARTH IS FLAT

SUN REVOLVES AROUND THE EARTH

MOON LANDING WAS FAKE

ETC ETC ETC

IGNORANCE IS BLISS

PROOF-CHRISTIANSON-BRUX-HEART-RODGERS

ALL WRONG

I'm trying to listen to what you are saying. Right now, your arguments are illogical and you are screaming. Screaming is used in speech to stop others from speaking back. Is that your intent online?

Traditionally when on presents illogical arguments, one supports those arguments with articles from a recognized subject matter expert. Can you do that? Does this test you speak about exist? Often times these test results created with taxpayer money are published somewhere. Is it? Maybe you could show us where the cf barrels are deployed into military service?

We have other folks questioning your research and expertise with their job function explained? If you are the sme can you explain that?

So, last let me give some basic support to your argument. Carbon Fiber is quite similar to graphite. Graphite is an excellent thermal conductor in some forms. Carbon Fiber composites have a history of being poor thermal conductors. There is some activity to improve this by adding graphene to the composite. I don't know if barrel makers are doing this, but I believe it would be new technology if they were. That would increase the thermal conductivity of the composite.

So then we go to the other side. When shots are fired in a barrel, heat is transfered into the barrel at the bore. With a thin barrel, the temperature is raised higher than with a thin barrel because the thermal capacity is lower than a thick barrel. With an ultra thin barrel wrapped in cf, the temp would be even higher because the thermal conductivity of current carbon fiber composites is widely variable but generally lower than steel. Develop a path to transfer heat to the outer surface with something like graphene and this changes, but that is not developed as far as I can tell.