When is Widcatting Worth It?

[BoatTail]

I've been messing with wildcat cartridges since 2014. I know many of you have been doing it much longer. I also have at least 12 different wildcat chamber reamers in my reloading room. I know that many of you probably have hundreds.

Lately though I've started to wonder, when is it worth it to wildcat a cartridge? Especially when you consider what we get from the standard SAAMI cartridges, and the extras in costs (You need custom dies), time, case prep efforts, (I like tighter neck tolerances) load testing and development, risks to body from mistakes, and limited availability availability of this cartridge (since we are often the only source of this special cartridge).

Is it when you get 3 or more extra grs of powder from a case. Is the gain of 50 to 60 fps in velocity per grain of powder? What level of improved stability and accuracy is needed to make it worth? Or, when does it just become just an exercise in burning more powder and creating more recoil.

I have 4 different custom chamber reamers for my current project. I've settled on one that increases both the case length and lead/freebore. The new wildcat will give at least 3.5 grs of extra powder space and resulting velocity simply due to a longer case. There is lot more velocity potential from the increase powder space from lengthening the freebore so the bullets can be seated well out of the powder space.

So rather than discuss a particular wildcat cartridge, my question is for all of them. When is wildcatting worth it?

By the way, the last 7 or 8 years have been a ton of fun!!

 

[lancetkenyon]

The benefits of some wildcats are not ONLY more case capacity. But case design too.
Case in point, the 6.5SLR. Takes a .260 Rem, and blows out case wall taper but the body/shoulder junction stays in the same place, but pushes the neck/shoulder DOWN to form 30°, increasing neck length. So you get .260 Rem case capacity, but gains the neck/shoulder design of the 6.5x47L, a known case design for accuracy.

But if you are looking at pure speed gains, a .75% charge weight increase or better wilp make a noticable difference, and so does a 30° or 40° shoulder.

The shoulder steepening process also benefits case life, throat erosion, case growth limiting, etc.

 

[ATH]

Many of us find it "worth it" just for the challenge to do something different. This is a hobby, after all.

My first wildcat was a .358 WSM variant requiring heavy case modification and extreme shoulder movement due to at-the-time very unique Indiana requirements. But this wildcat delivered performance on par with a 35 Whelen AI, in a cartridge with 1.8" brass OAL, far above the performance of any factory-offered legal cartridge. So the performance advantage was in no way in question.

I next went to a 243AI. To me, the 100fps+ velocity advantage, combined with complete elimination of brass trimming, was compelling. Some disagree. Reload 500 conventional 243Win having to trim all of them and then tell me it's not meaningful. I'm going to burn this barrel out on 200 brass without ever trimming a case.

Subsequently I've built 20 Practical, 6X45, both worth it for the reasons I built them. The former for high speed varmints and the latter for a low recoil, short range hunting rifle for kids. I've currently got all the parts on order for a 6.5-06AI because the 243AI didn't quite satisfy me as a medium game rifle at extended ranges and this is a significant step up from conventional 6.5s...again with great brass life due to elimination of trimming with the shoulder angle.

 

[7.62 Gunner]

For me it makes sense when good brass isn't available in a certain chambering i.e 7 wsm, or to take advantage of a 40 degree shoulder.
There's something gratifying about tweaking a cartridge to your own unique criteria, even if it results in reinventing the wheel 99% of the time

 

[357Mag]

I've been messing with wildcat cartridges since 2014. I know many of you have been doing it much longer. I also have at least 12 different wildcat chamber reamers in my reloading room. I know that many of you probably have hundreds.

Lately though I've started to wonder, when is it worth it to wildcat a cartridge? Especially when you consider what we get from the standard SAAMI cartridges, and the extras in costs (You need custom dies), time, case prep efforts, (I like tighter neck tolerances) load testing and development, risks to body from mistakes, and limited availability availability of this cartridge (since we are often the only source of this special cartridge).

Is it when you get 3 or more extra grs of powder from a case. Is the gain of 50 to 60 fps in velocity per grain of powder? What level of improved stability and accuracy is needed to make it worth? Or, when does it just become just an exercise in burning more powder and creating more recoil.

I have 4 different custom chamber reamers for my current project. I've settled on one that increases both the case length and lead/freebore. The new wildcat will give at least 3.5 grs of extra powder space and resulting velocity simply due to a longer case. There is lot more velocity potential from the increase powder space from lengthening the freebore so the bullets can be seated well out of the powder space.

So rather than discuss a particular wildcat cartridge, my question is for all of them. When is wildcatting worth it?

By the way, the last 7 or 8 years have been a ton of fun!!

BoaTail -

Howdy !

You gave yourself one partial answer to your own question, when you said: ".....the last 7 or 8 years have been a lot of fun !! " But, that is only one reason for wildcatting.BR, 6BRBRX

Designing your own wildcat is a whole 'nuther deal than forming brass for a wildcat that someone else designed
( example .250Ackley Improved ). You mentioned this other aspect of wildcatting..... doing so to arrrive @ a case with the capacity you believe you need to meet your shooting need(s). This quite often means doing your own design, and case forming I know people also go for things like a certain shoulder angle, but I am of the opinion that in the majority of the instances; a certain case capacity is being sough by the wildcatter ( IMHO ).

One can look @ the many 6mm chamberings ( factory and wildcat ) for example, and note the relatively close case capacities in the range from 6X45, old school 6X47, 6PPC on up through 6BR, 6BRX, 6 Dasher, 6 Long Dasher; et al. You name it, cause I can't..... 6PPC Short, 6mm Grinch, 6mm Toad. This is not a criticism of wildcattting, in any way.

Some wildcatters aren't even looking for 1gr increase or decrease in capacity, when looking for a certain capacity that they feel is not available within established chamberings ( factory and wildcat ). I know of one wildcatter than wanted .2gr powder increase above what the .30Major offered; when shooting his chosen favorite powder for that size case, He wanted to get the extra .2gr, without having to compress/over-compress his selected charge.

You likely won't be able to reliably predict a fixed amount of velocity increae, for a given grain / .1gr increas in powder charge. Things like the " Powley Computer " and current digitized internal/external ballistics programs and
" cartridge design utilities " are useful for tools for the aspiring wilcat case designer. I realy liked Powley's ability to describe many internal ballistics principles and laws in layman's terms. Powley's tech writings gave me an enduring appreciation for the concept of rifle " expansion ratio ", which I fell is a must-know for wildcatters.

Things like custom dies / custom reamers, time, load development ( which you mentioned ) are usually embraced by wildcatters. And even more so, case forming & case prep; which are part N' parcel of operating in the custom design wildcatting domain. Things like load develpment and testing apply to reloading for factory chamberings too, as does the chance of one making loading mistakes. These latter items themselves, do not argue at all against wildcat use.

The custom dies/custom reamers aspect may not be set in stone, at all. It is possible sometimes, to come up with a new wildcat design that makes use of existing chamber reamers and existing re-loading dies. For instance, when an exisring chamber reamer is run-in " short ". My current wildcat I call " DEEP 6 ". It is my own design for a cartridge that I can use for either target or varmings out to 1,000yd; if need be. The chamber is cut by running a 6mm Remington reamer in " short ", to arrive @ a nominal .466" base diam in the chamber. I use 7 X 64 Brenneke, which has the .466" base diam I need; and is a .308 bolt face " rimless " case. I form DEEP 6 cases
using a stock ( LEE ) 6.5 X 55 FL die w/ its internals removed; as the case forming die. I do case prep and case load / re-loading using off-the-shelf 6mm Remington dies ( Hornady ). So, for this example wildcat cartridge; no custom chamber or re-size reamers.... no custom case forming dies.... and no custom re-loading dies are required ! That type of successful wildcatting certainly helps contain project costs !

The wildcatter should above all, establish goals for his project. Not only performance goals for the final case/cartridge that was designed, but also cost ceilings to establish pradtical limits on the amount of cost that might be incurred. My DEEP 6 wildcart fully met my performance goals ( accuracy and terminal performance on groundhogs ), and as mentioned above.... was an emminently affordable project.

*** When the new wildcat meets your performance goals within tolerable project cost; one should consider that
the " When is wildcatting worth it ? " question has been sufficiently answered.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

I've been messing with wildcat cartridges since 2014. I know many of you have been doing it much longer. I also have at least 12 different wildcat chamber reamers in my reloading room. I know that many of you probably have hundreds.

Lately though I've started to wonder, when is it worth it to wildcat a cartridge? Especially when you consider what we get from the standard SAAMI cartridges, and the extras in costs (You need custom dies), time, case prep efforts, (I like tighter neck tolerances) load testing and development, risks to body from mistakes, and limited availability availability of this cartridge (since we are often the only source of this special cartridge).

Is it when you get 3 or more extra grs of powder from a case. Is the gain of 50 to 60 fps in velocity per grain of powder? What level of improved stability and accuracy is needed to make it worth? Or, when does it just become just an exercise in burning more powder and creating more recoil.

I have 4 different custom chamber reamers for my current project. I've settled on one that increases both the case length and lead/freebore. The new wildcat will give at least 3.5 grs of extra powder space and resulting velocity simply due to a longer case. There is lot more velocity potential from the increase powder space from lengthening the freebore so the bullets can be seated well out of the powder space.

So rather than discuss a particular wildcat cartridge, my question is for all of them. When is wildcatting worth it?

By the way, the last 7 or 8 years have been a ton of fun!!

All -

Please forgive the splotchy typing errors that I just noted in my previous post; above. Some wildcat cases appear in print in the wrong spot, and I am unsure quite how that happened. I only meant to provide a list of example wildcats for case capacity comparison reasons.

A thousand appologies !


With regards,
357Mag

 

[WildRose]

I've been messing with wildcat cartridges since 2014. I know many of you have been doing it much longer. I also have at least 12 different wildcat chamber reamers in my reloading room. I know that many of you probably have hundreds.

Lately though I've started to wonder, when is it worth it to wildcat a cartridge? Especially when you consider what we get from the standard SAAMI cartridges, and the extras in costs (You need custom dies), time, case prep efforts, (I like tighter neck tolerances) load testing and development, risks to body from mistakes, and limited availability availability of this cartridge (since we are often the only source of this special cartridge).

Is it when you get 3 or more extra grs of powder from a case. Is the gain of 50 to 60 fps in velocity per grain of powder? What level of improved stability and accuracy is needed to make it worth? Or, when does it just become just an exercise in burning more powder and creating more recoil.

I have 4 different custom chamber reamers for my current project. I've settled on one that increases both the case length and lead/freebore. The new wildcat will give at least 3.5 grs of extra powder space and resulting velocity simply due to a longer case. There is lot more velocity potential from the increase powder space from lengthening the freebore so the bullets can be seated well out of the powder space.

So rather than discuss a particular wildcat cartridge, my question is for all of them. When is wildcatting worth it?

By the way, the last 7 or 8 years have been a ton of fun!!

It's worth it when the time you spend on it produces the results you want.

Hobbies don't have to make sense, especially economically nor do they have to be practical.

I've learned though that if a case has been around more than a year or two someone, probably several of them have already tried any Wildcat off it it that can be practical so if you do some searching around you don't have to start from Scratch.

I shoot a couple of them now and within 5 years plan to have 5 separate cartridges and rifles firing them all using the 375 Ruger case.

 

[WYOHTF]

I have three center fire rifles that are Saami
25-06, .308 and 7mmRM.
The others are all wildcats, I've never had a reamer built, don't own one(yet). Got some ideas in my head but they are probably already out there.
I love going to the range with something no one else has. I haven't shot more than 4 boxes of factory ammo in the last 10 years. Reloading is therapy for me, my escape.
As far as wildcattin goes, I'm a student. I think it's fun as heck.
There are a few guys on here that develop extreme wildcats and use 7 or 8 dies to make a cartridge.
I love reading what they accomplish and learn from it.
Long live the the wildcatter!

 

[Hugnot]

When cheap available brass can be used to keep you in operation with the bullets of choice - the .20P is one. Scrounge up free, hi quality range LC 5.56 brass and with some operations involving primer pocket swaging, small base resize, size using Redding .223 bushing F/L die, & neck turning .20P brass is produced. The .20P comes real close to the .204 R and finding .204R brass is difficult to impossible. The 6.5-06 is another - all those nice 6.5 bullets may be used with available cheap brass. In one month of on/off handloading I can produce 100's of rounds of both for my range & rodent shooting adventures.

 

[WYOHTF]

I've got enough LC bras in 7.62x51 and -06 to start a small war. That's why I love wildcat chambers off them.
I'm making 6mm A.I. brass here very shortly(if a few dies would show up I ordered before Xmas)

 

[can1010]

wildcatting is simply fun and educational at the same time. just enjoy the experience dont try to make it make sense

 

[Hugnot]

The 6mmAI is another one of my favorites. Time saved by limited case trimming offsets fire forming effort(s). The 6mm AI has a nice long neck & just the right amount of powder fill capacity, using a variety of extruded & ball powders, for zippy 87 VMAX & 87 Berger VLD velocities for 600 yard plus anti-rodent applications. My rifle weighs in at about 15 lbs. and use of a golf cart to transport it & other stuff (tripod) is under consideration. I have a F/L Redding 6mm AI, 40 deg. die & use a Hornady 6mm/.243 seating die. I turn necks to .268 OD. I needed to shorten a shell holder for correct headspace. Steady progress is being made to acquire a stash of 87 Vmax's.

 

[WYOHTF]

I'm building mine for antelope and deer I guess,
It will not weigh what yours does. WOW
I grew up shooting a Rem 788 in 6mm, kinda got a thing for the cartridge but I like hot rods too

 

[Hugnot]

Some landowners won't allow motor vehicles, but wheels needed. Umbrella might be attached to golf cart - no trees for shade!

Sierra data gives best accuracy with 85's using 49.5 IMR4831, I use that with 87 Vmax's.
87 H Vmax - 46.5, RL16 outstanding, easy 3 shot sight in, old established load,
87 H Vmax - 47.0, H4350, is hot
87 H Vmax - 47.0 SW4350, close to Sierra data, is hot
100 H Interlock BT -, 46.5 4000MR, about 1" at 200, not as high velocity but accurate, less density than other ball powders.
100 H Interlock BT - 48.0 VN165, fills case nicely, velocities moderate 3,100 fps, good accuracy

R-S Hunter & H StaBall might work with 87's.

My rifle has a 10-twist barrel & both 87 Vmax & 100 H Interlock BT work. 75's get over 3,500 fps but 87's velocities should be more at over 500 yds. The 100 H Interlock is a good cheap bullet and if I had to shoot deers with this rifle I would use it. 87 Berger VLD's pricy but I have 100 & will work them in.