Whats the best rifle for building a 338LM on?

Brent: I'm interested in hearing more about your 30/338 Lap as I am getting ready to build one on a 700 action. My 7/338 Lap is rock solid and I LOVE it. I must object to the comment above about the 700 not being "able to compete in the modern accuracy environment" though. This is a total fallacy and is proved inaccurate every day. The 700 is one of the most accurate and reliable actions on the market as it has been for many years. Unfortunately, there are quite a few people out there who own Sako's and think that you can get no better. All I can say is that if my tactical rifle in the Marine Corps is based on a 700 action and the Sako is better, why has the US govt not started using Sako instead of Rem actions? Now, for the novice, a Sako or a Weatherby (Weatherby being the superior of the two) action would be ideal for someone with little experience in wildcatting, but if you're after the the action with the most after-market parts and info available, then you'll choose the Remington. For the easy way out, the Sako would be fine as there is less work to be done, but, if you want a rifle that you can always rely on, then the Remington is the way to go. I put my life in the hands of Remington on more than one occasion (and have owned and shot them for 25 years now) and it never let me down so if it was me building the rifle, I would choose nothing but the M700. I have had 11 Sako rifles and, whereas they have been good rifles, I feel that they try a little too hard to make a rifle that "looks pretty" rather than one that can go to hell and back without incident. I'm not in any way trashing Sako because they ARE good rifles, i'm just saying that they are a little overpriced for what you get. The only thing bad I can ever say about the 700 is that when they went to that new "J-Lock" system, it removed the ability to install a speed lock firing pin (which I have grown very fond of). Anyhow, everybody above makes some good points, but, I personally would go with a 700. There IS quite a bit of work to be done, but, in the end, it's WELL worth every bit of it. Just my .02!

TH
 
Lots of 700's have been converted, but the Sako has a much bigger lug bearing surface and bolt diameter.
This is a good thing when dealing with such a big case.
Yes, the operating pressures are the same, but the RUM case only puts out about 10,340 ft lb of back thrust at 65k, and the Lapua will do more like 12,760.
Maybe fine, but if you're staring from scratch, I think I'd go with the TRG.
 
Bump to YoungGun. This area is where the Sako outshines the 700. However, the 700 is still a fine action to use for a .338 Lap. Being a Remington fan though, I personally would go with the 700. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys who know what they're talking about on this board so I am sure that you will find out what you need to know. All I can say is take your time and decide what works best for YOU. Best of luck to ya bro and let us all know what you decide on and how the project goes.

TH

[ 02-21-2004: Message edited by: Austin ]
 
Youngun in right the Lapua would have a little more bolt thrust. However it does not have more recoil surface as evidenced by everybody putting a Badger, Tubb or Holland style lug on there Sako's. Do the same with a Remmy. Bolt diameter has little to do with anything.
 
You could always just buy an AR-30 ...

They come in 338 Lapua ...

[ 02-21-2004: Message edited by: dwm ]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Lots of 700's have been converted, but the Sako has a much bigger lug bearing surface and bolt diameter.
This is a good thing when dealing with such a big case.
Yes, the operating pressures are the same, but the RUM case only puts out about 10,340 ft lb of back thrust at 65k, and the Lapua will do more like 12,760.
Maybe fine, but if you're staring from scratch, I think I'd go with the TRG.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Remington is rated at over twice that bolt thrust load, so, what's the point if they both will handle the load with a huge margin for safety?

I'd build it on the 700, and never look back either.

I've got a 721 action that I'll reserve for some destructive testing using the 30/338 Lapua Imp hooked to the two pressure testing systems I use. I'd like to hear all of your opinions on what's going to blow first, and at what pressure.

I'm going to tell you, the case is. I could use 338 caliber bullets and see how the receiver ring or barrel threads hold up, but that bolt isn't going anywhere.

As soon as I get the lathe and mill set up at the shop we'll get this done and have something REAL to talk about concerning this 700 in 338 Lapua safety non-sense.
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Anyone want to donate their beloved Sako to compare!
 
A similar extreme pressure test was done 20 or 25 years ago but, Bill Miller didn't have the new Sako 3 lug action to try out. Bill was the Vice president of the Williamsport 1000 yard club and a longrange hunter and competitive shooter.

A Mauser 98, a Winchester md 70, a Remington 700 and an Enfield P=17 made by Winchester was used for the test.

All rifles were fitted with used barrels and each chambered for the 30/378 Weatherby. 250 By 30 cal MK bullets (available at the time) were used for the test along with H-4831 powder. The powder charges were worked up a few grains at a time till an action blew or locked up and then continued with more powder in the remaining actions till all of them failed.

The barreled actions were placed in a large earth mover tire (one at a time) and a "long" string was attached to each trigger. This test was done at Bill Millers machine shop in Watsontown, PA.

Here are the results of that testing as reported by Bill at the time. Several of the members of the 1000 yard club were on hand for the testing.

The first to go was the Mauser 98 and it was blown to pieces and the bolt was not in what was left of the action. Both lugs were sheared off. It was not a real heavy charge either as I remember.

Next was the Md 70 which had the front of the action blown away all the way around. The bolt was still in what was left of the action with a large amount of set back and one lug partially sheared away. Part of the bolt head was also gone.

Next came the Remington which had one side of the front of receiver blown out (in pieces) and the bolt locked up and also set back. Both lugs were grooved badly and one lug was half gone.

The last action to fail under "extreme" pressure was the P-17 Enfield by Winchester.
Nothing was blown away on the action but the bolt locked up with 112 grs or 117 grs (not sure right now which) of 4831 which was quite a bit more then what the Remington and other actions failed at. If I remember correctly, the Remington went with 102 grs.

The barrel on the Enfield had to be cut back and away at the threaded area to relieve the tension but, when this was done, the bolt still functioned in the rails. No lug grooves or chips to bolt face were detected.

All the rest of the actions were destroyed from this testing and not usable again. The P17 was not used either but, Bill thought it could be.

Now the only point to make here is, if you happen to screw up and put the wrong powder in when loading or forget to clean all the grease from the cases, you may have a better chance of "living" with a stronger action like the P-17 or a custom or even "possibly" the Sako 3 lug then any of the others that blew apart or locked up during these high pressure tests.
Yes, the Remington failed as all actions will eventually do, under extreme pressures.

Wish Bill would have had a 3 lug Sako to try this test on to see how it would have held up? They weren't being made then however.

This was just a test to see how the actions would hold up under "extreme" pressure and all of them have their limits and can be blown up or locked up in one way or another.

Remingtons "may" be strong enough to hold some of the larger cases like the Lapua but, with the expense of cutting the bolt face out, putting in a special Sako extractor, increasing the size of the magazine box, never overloading a tad to obtain a bit more velocity, it makes better sense to me to buy a complete Sako 995 chambered in the 338 Lapua for about $600.00.
The action is ready to go with "NO" other alterations needed as one would have to do with a Remington. If you just used the action, you probably won't have any more invested then the machine work and initial cost of a Remington action would be, and you would end up with Sako quality and 3 lug safety, if piece of mind is is an issue.
You could sell the stock and barrel and recoup some of the $600.00 spent for the complete rifle.

It just makes much more sense to me to go this route then fooling with a Remington action and all the work and expense needed to use it for larger cases.
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Just another view point and I might add, I have several bench rifles made with Remington actions but, would "never" consider chambering a 30/378 or 338/378 on them the way I like to push the velocity and pressure envelope even though they may work fine for some who keep the pressures down.

To each his own.

Later
DC
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Fascinating, Darryl. What happened to the barrels in these cases? Was the damage confined to the actions?
 
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Here are some loads I just been shooting with the 30-338 Lapua Imp during some testing with a really powder fouled barrel... in the 700 action. Peak PSI has the last two zeros dropped, so 75,000 PSI reads 750 under the "Peak" column.

Cases were all sticky coming out, bolt lift and extraction were also stiff. Primers had craters about .010 - .020" tall too! Don't use these loads!

250 rounds ago, most of these loads were plenty mild to shoot, but after not cleaning for over 75 rounds, pressure and MV had risen to unacceptable levels.

After cleaning, pressure dropped about 6,000 psi on these loads, but not all the way to where it had been. So, it's my best guess, that some roughening of the bore has occurred and forcing me to drop back on the powder charges I first started out with that had been in the low to mid 60,000 psi range.

After a good break in period, I've seen a few barrels require the loads to be reduced just like this one, and possibly for the same reason?? Something to be aware of...

At any rate, I'd still like to see for myself what PSI it takes to get one of these actions to fail.

The bolt is contained parallel within the bolt bore. Therefore, for that reason alone, only ONE lug tearing loose, that just makes no sense to me at all.

I do not know much about P17's or any of the Mauser's, but I know they were not all created equal in strength, and that is just common knowledge. I like to know every detail in a situation like DC described about, and there are many of them that are sadly left out. For this reason, not a whole lot can be learned from this "expensive" account.

I will post pictures and all the details of the destructive testing I do, and I'll use another action to verify the first ones failure level and location... This could get expensive... However, it seems no one is really interested in laying this out for the public, and it's something that should have been tested time and time again in REALITY, then published.

A good place to start seems to be these 240gr SMK I have and 4831 then. It may take a 338 cal bullet to blow it up though, any bets?

Youngun,
Can you run the numbers and tell me what pressure should cause the lugs to yield, and what pressure they should shear.

The receiver diameter is about 1.35" in diameter. With that, you could figure the point the barrel the receiver ring should yield, and where it should fail. If you need the case diameter to figure the pressure vessel's wall thickness, it's .585" in diameter.

[ 02-22-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
 
Len

The barrels held except back where the barrel screwed into the threaded area of the action. That area was partially blown away on a couple of them and I'm not sure which ones right now.

I also received an Email from a fellow who knew Bill quite well and he agreed with my posts as to the way Bill liked to test an action to the max.

Brent
Not all factory actions are created equal either, even from the SAME manufacturer. This is common knowledge.

You "will" blow or lock up your Remington action if you use the same loadings as Bill did and the 250 gr bullets. You will not be able to use that action anymore.
He (Bill) did it to see what held the best and the old Enfield held up the best, in his testing.
Keep in mind, there were no custom actions in the test or I'm sure they would have held MUCH better. This is especially true of the tough, Hall G and Bat actions manufactured today.

Your already getting "major" pressure signs and stiff bolts with 92 grs of a slower powder.
Go with 105 grs of 4831 or 4350 and and a 250 gr bullet and see what happens in your tests?

Don't be anywhere near that gun when you pull the trigger though.
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It would be interesting to see how the new Sako 3 lug held up in a comparison test. I don't think to many of us have a new action laying around for such a test though.

If your so confident about the strength of your Remington chambered in the 30 Lapua, try that test "right now" with 105 grs of 4831 or 4350 and a 250 gr bullet and see what it does? I'll send you some 250 gr MKs to try.

By the way, when the front of the actions blew out on "one side" it did cock the bolt on an angle and a lug was sheared. Sorry I don't have any pictures for you.

Later
DC
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[ 02-23-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
 
If the pressures are as high as I'm thinking they will be, no person in their right mind would use it again after subjecting it to that. I will wait to test the 721 first.

I would take you up on the 250's if you believe it will make a differnce over the 240gr. I don't think it much matters really, might amount to 2-3gr more powder maybe??

This action is nearly ready to be fitted with the block and into the BR stock. We bought my gunsmiths buisiness and he's finishing up the last rifles this week and next. The work on this rig is already paid for by way of trade, so I've got to get it to him in a week or two at most in order to get it finished. My wife has been patiently waiting for me to get done "playing" with her rifle for.... months now.
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I'll find another 700 for cheap to make a comparison with, and yes, both will be unusable afterward. I wouldn't donate my Sako either, let the idiot doing the testing buy one.
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I don't use Sako's so I'm not too interested in that part, it would still be interesting.
 
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