What am I doing wrong, and how do I fix it?

[BigMedicine]

I bought a Winchester M70 Extreme Weather in .270 WSM back in March, and I cannot get a decent group. The first two shot out of a cold barrel are usually close, but the third is always a flyer. What can I do to remedy this gun? I have talley integral ring/base mounts on it, and my scope is a Night Force SHV 4-14x56 MOAR Illum. Could it be a bedding issue? Anyone else out there have a similar problem with their rifle?
I am kind of bummed out that I cannot get this gun to shoot, hunting season is not too far away and I really would like to use this gun this year. I have tried numerous hand loads, as I like to roll my own. Factory ammo is so,so ...still get the third shot flyer. Is the barrel that heat sensitive?

Anything you can think of to help me out would be greatly appreciated, this rifle has me flustered.

 

[tbrice23]

What powder, bullet, primer are you using?

 

[Dosh]

Big, perhaps the action needs bedding, this can help a lot. Check the stock in-letting and the barrel contact in the fore-end. Good luck

 

[BigMedicine]

What powder, bullet, primer are you using?

I'be tried Mag Pro w/ 140 gr accubonds, and fed 215M. Reloader 17, 19, 22. Hogdon 4831sc, regular 4831. IMR 4350, Accurate 4350. I've tried Sierra 130 & 140 game kings. Nosler 130, 140, and 150 ballistic tips. And too many load combo's to mention. I'm sure I'm forgetting others.

 

[BigMedicine]

Big, perhaps the action needs bedding, this can help a lot. Check the stock in-letting and the barrel contact in the fore-end. Good luck

I was thinking about that, I'm going to check it now and let you know what I find.

 

[Engineering101]

The components you mentioned are capable of fine accuracy so no issues there.

What size are the groups with the flyers? The areas to look for a fix depend on how bad it shoots. If it won't stay on a piece of notebook paper I'd look for a broken scope and that kind of major failure. If it is holding under 4 inches I would check that the barrel is floated and about 2 dozen other things. At some point you might want to get the bore scoped to make sure you are not dealing with a lemon.

 

[BigMedicine]

The components you mentioned are capable of fine accuracy so no issues there.

What size are the groups with the flyers? The areas to look for a fix depend on how bad it shoots. If it won't stay on a piece of notebook paper I'd look for a broken scope and that kind of major failure. If it is holding under 4 inches I would check that the barrel is floated and about 2 dozen other things. At some point you might want to get the bore scoped to make sure you are not dealing with a lemon.

My groups are are averaging 1.5 inches at 100 yards, my best group to date is .575 inches using Mag Pro, Nosler 140 gr. AB, and Fed 215M primers. But that load showed pressure signs. I tried using a standard large rifle primer today using the same load, but it opened up to about 1.25 inches. But the strange thing is, even the .575 group demonstrated the exact direction all my flyers seem to go, and it's at the 11 o'clock position away from the first two shots. The .575 group would have been .335 if it wasn't for the third shot taking off towards the 11 position.
What do you think of adding a pressure point at the fore end of the stock? I've heard of people doing it with some success.
My buddy and I bought the exact same guns on the same day, I sighted both of them in for us, and his rifle shoots the lights out just about every time with no flyers, and it's me pulling the trigger. And both triggers are set at 2.5 lbs. I don't know what to make of it.
I checked for in-letting and could not detect any signs of wear in the stock nor on the receiver. Nor could I get any type of movement with action screws removed, so I don't think it's that ...any suggestions?

 

[Black67]

Big Medicine

I have a newer M70 stainless Featherweight that did simmilar things. Check to see if your barrel and action are straight in the stock. Mine was not, and the barrel would touch on one side of the stock on the forend. Also check the bedding, as mine was done very poorly around the recoil lug and tang/rear bolt area.

For me, I had to clean out the old bedding material, then redo the whole thing. I also pillar bedded mine since mine is in a wood stock.

For the action screws, torque them down to about 50 in lbs in steps (since you should have an Al bedding block with pillars). Start at about 15-20 in lbs for each, then work to 50 in lbs. This works for me, as this is what I was told from an old gunsmith that I knew years ago that did a lot of work on Winchesters.

As for the forend pressure, some of the older guns liked it, some did not. If you do try this, make sure that it is even on the barrel.

Now, for mine, I went from about a 3" group at 100 yards to just over 1" at 100 yards with the same factory load. With some work, I think that I can get it lower.

For the trigger, did you put in an Ernies trigger spring?

 

[BigMedicine]

Big Medicine

I have a newer M70 stainless Featherweight that did simmilar things. Check to see if your barrel and action are straight in the stock. Mine was not, and the barrel would touch on one side of the stock on the forend. Also check the bedding, as mine was done very poorly around the recoil lug and tang/rear bolt area.

For me, I had to clean out the old bedding material, then redo the whole thing. I also pillar bedded mine since mine is in a wood stock.

For the action screws, torque them down to about 50 in lbs in steps (since you should have an Al bedding block with pillars). Start at about 15-20 in lbs for each, then work to 50 in lbs. This works for me, as this is what I was told from an old gunsmith that I knew years ago that did a lot of work on Winchesters.

As for the forend pressure, some of the older guns liked it, some did not. If you do try this, make sure that it is even on the barrel.

Now, for mine, I went from about a 3" group at 100 yards to just over 1" at 100 yards with the same factory load. With some work, I think that I can get it lower.

For the trigger, did you put in an Ernies trigger spring?

Black67-

Thanks for the input, it is greatly appreciated as is all others. The bedding doesn't look bad, but what I don't like about it is, it seems soft to me, not like Devcon, but more like hot glue. I think I am going to have it redone in my neighboring state of PA. There is a real good gunsmith there that has done bedding jobs for me in the past. I could do it myself, but I don't have the time right now and I really want to get it straightened out.
I have my action screws set at 55 for the front one and 45 at the rear, I am going to try and go shoot it tomorrow after work weather permitting. I did add a pressure point at the fore end to see what happens, I plan on shooting a string of three pretty quick to see if the flyer shows its self on the third round.
I need to get this gun done so I can move on to the next one I have in my safe waiting to see the light of day, that one is a Kimber Montana in .308. That's going to be my ravine hiking gun, nice and light ...but that will be another story down the road.
I will report back tomorrow whether or not I get out to the bench, chances are I will, as long as it's not pouring out.

 

[hesse]

I had the same problem with this gun in a 264 win . what I found out was I was getting horrible copper fouling so I fire lapped the gun using Tubbs grit impregnated bullets . what a great product . I hope this helps

 

[BigMedicine]

I had the same problem with this gun in a 264 win . what I found out was I was getting horrible copper fouling so I fire lapped the gun using Tubbs grit impregnated bullets . what a great product . I hope this helps

What Kind of improvement did you get, I've been curious about that product for a while, I would like to hear of your results ...thanks.

 

[hesse]

we are still working on it . it is a new gun what it would do is shoot 2 rounds touching and then they would spread 2 to 4 inchs in all directions I would clean the barrel and it would be back to the first 2 holes. I am down to 1 inch moa . but I also got from Tubbs a supper fine bullet for dressing up the barrel after each 150 rounds you run 2 rounds thru a clean barrel. the gun only has about 50 rounds thru it but it helped a lot. I was looking at a new barrel on a new gun otherwise

 

[Black67]

Big Medicine

Yes, Winchester uses a hot glue in their guns for bedding. It is junk. I also have a M70 Sharpshooter, just shoots great. But, it had the clear, whitish bedding in it. It was all cracked and junk from 20 years of life. I just Devconed the whole thing, just now need to make it to the range when it is open for public shooting again.

I know Pa and NY, as I am an Ohio boy living in Washington due to job move for my wife. I also lived in NY for a year or so for a job.

Another cleaner for the bore is JB Bore compound. I have used that and it works good too.

I first used it on a Savage 110 in 7mm Rem Mag that shot so-so when I bought it. I followed the directions for it on that rifle, and it would shoot less then 1 MOA with anything I fed it. At 300 yards it was deadly.

 

[BigMedicine]

I haven't been able to get out and shoot, hopefully with the long holiday weekend coming up I'll be able to get out on the bench and have another whirl at it.