Weatherby Vanguard troubleshooting

[left handed gun]

I have a Weatherby Vanguard Sub MOA, about 6-7 years old.

It was sub MOA to a little better at first.

Always shot better with Weatherby Ammo than Hornady.

Factory test target spec'd 180 grain spire points.

Accuracy went bad after a few hundred rounds.

Can't recall if I posted anything before, but did talk to Weatherby.

They said torque guard screws to 65 in lbs.
Done, but no real improvement.

BBl always cleaned from breech to muzzle, not vice versa.
Usually use Hoppes No. 9, copper or nylon bristles, soft bore mop, patches.
No damage to crown.

Usually finish off cleaning with tetra gun oil, wet patch followed by dry patch.

I have used tetra bore cleaner several times.
The interior bbl under light looks almost mirror smooth.

I called Weatherby again. They said:

(1) torquing guard screws were usually best place to start;
(2) Try a bore cleaner called 7.62, make sure copper fouling removed;
(3) scope could have issues;
(4) Try some different ammo (and they have few rounds listed that have given best accuracy)

The scope is not a high dollar scope (Leupold VX I, 3-9, 40 mm bell).
But it gives a decent picture and nothing rattles or seems obviously out of whack.

I've thought about trying a different Hornady round, with 192 grain (or 190? I forget) BTHP. Nose look similar to 168 BTHP in .308 match.


While it definitely has more muzzle blast and recoil than my other guns, I don't think I am flinching and pulling it that much off line. I am the same person who shot it when it was giving me better groups. The trigger is decent. My Remington 700 wood stock .270 Win has a much worse trigger and better accuracy at this point.

Any real advice from people who know this gun/cartridge would help.

Advice like, "its a Weatherby, what did you expect," would not necessarily help but I'll take it with a grain of salt at this point.

I will finish with what I liked about it:
The 300 Weatherby seems to give you a good percentage of the ballistics of .338 Lapua and a smidge more than .300 Win, at close to .300 Win prices.

One local shop has 300 WBY ammo next to 338 Lapua. One is $49 a box. The other is $105. SO if I could get it back close to factory accurate, its a keeper.
Otherwise, maybe I sell and go with a .300 Win., maybe a Tikka. Even the measurable difference or field reports about the .338 Lapua will not convince me to start buying three digit ammo in boxes of 20.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I have a Weatherby Vanguard Sub MOA, about 6-7 years old.

"its a Weatherby, what did you expect"

I have several Vanguards, and each of them easily shots Sub-MOA with factory ammo even though they didn't leave the factory labeled as a Sub-MOA rifle. You don't mention but I assume that it yours is in 300 Weatherby caliber. A couple of thoughts...

1. How many rounds total so far? At least a few hundred per your post but how many more at this time?

2. How often do you clean? and does cleaning make a difference in your accuracy?

3. What is your shooting routine? I assume it has not changed much for the life of the rifle, but it would help to know what you do.

4. Have you ever looked at the daub of "bedding" that they put around the recoil lug in the stock? Have you separated the action from the stock, or only tightened the screws?

5. What is the trigger pull weight, and have you ever adjusted it?

6. What size groups do you get now?


My thoughts -

I am not a fan of your cleaners and suspect they are leaving material behind. Everyone has their favorite, but those with a lot more experience than I on this site led me to the BoreTech line of solutions, jags, rods and brushes. I would highly recommend looking at them as well, and I really wonder if you have a carbon ring in the barrel or copper fouling. Note as well that excessive cleaning causes its own set of problems.

The scope is the next place I would look. I've had brand name scopes go bad with a lot less recoil. The beauty is that Leupold has a lifetime warranty - you can send yours in and they will evaluate & rehab it, then send it back. In the meantime mount a KNOWN good scope and see how it shoots.

If is shot well with the 180gr factory ammo initially when you owned it then there is no reason that the same ammo shouldn't work for you provided the rest of the package is up to the task.

 

[left handed gun]

Thanks for the post.

Rounds:
I estimate maybe 500 rounds. Highly doubt it would be more. I could get pretty accurate count by checking my accumulated brass.

Cleaning:
I tried to clean between every 1-3 range trips, with maybe 15-20 rounds per trip. Sometimes fewer rounds, rarely more.

Hard to say if it helped. I never noticed accuracy suffering before in between cleanings. Just did it mostly out of habit.

Trigger pull:
Trigger breaks at 4.8 ##. I would have estimated it less. That's not a digital gauge, but seems fairly accurate based on measurements for some handgun triggers I have.

I've only torqued the action screws, never had the action off the stock.They did need tightening the first time I checked. I really thought that would be it.

Shooting Routine:
I try to get a good firm rest. I use Caldwell bags lately. Previously I had a molded plastic rest with an elevation knob front and a set of ears where the stock rested at rear. I try to go through one breath, exhale, breathe in, then let off before exhaling again, if I really think about it. But I am generally more oriented to sight picture than breathing. The trigger will still surprise me at times when it touches off. That's why I say to me, it feels lighter than 4.8##. For comparison, my Rem 700 is at close to 8##, Colt AR about 7+. I don't have a sense of struggling with the trigger. I do not wait more than a minute or two between shots, unless the bbl feels hot. I try not to abuse the bbl., as it is a thin sporter bbl.

Where I shoot, there are flags that help you gauge the wind. But the last couple trips, wind has not been a big factor.

Groups:
Right now, I get groups over 2.5". Never smaller.

My Colt AR and M1A will group rings around it.
The M1A has my best scope on it, Swaro Z5, 5-25. But the Colt has a Leupold AR with roughly comparable glass to the VX1. Both will shoot sub MOA with match ammo.

Can't rule out the scope, I suppose. It is a light gun with some recoil to it. I can't recall ever dropping it.

I'll look into the boretech gear. Weatherby recommended the 7.62 cleaner. I've seen mixed reactions to it.

I may also have someone videotape me with my I phone, see if I am developing a flinch. I would think the groups would be worse than they are.

Thanks again.

 

[Dr. Vette]

No problem.

At 500 rounds I doubt the barrel is shot out, which is why I asked.

I would take the action out of the stock and look at the daub of material that they use to bed the lug. See if it is cracked or falling apart. I've seen it happen which is why I ask. Also look for evidence that the action might be moving or slipping in the stock.

And, as noted, I would clean the barrel with a better cleaner and also try a known good scope.

Personally I adjust to 2 pounds for the trigger, though that can be a bit tricky with a stock Vanguard trigger. Take a look at this thread:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/howa-trigger-adjustment-how-52584/
If nothing else, I use a Dremel polishing wheel with Flitz on the mating surfaces of the trigger and sear to remove any coarseness and smooth it up. It's a trick that works very well.

Somewhere in there you will find your accuracy back.

I usually wait 3 minutes between shots, longer if it is warmer outside.
Take a look at Broz' thread here:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f116/importance-being-solid-91149/

 

[Deleted member 46119]

What he said.

I have 3 Vanguards and some Mark Vs. Non are or ever were that bad.

 

[HARPERC]

1) Scope issue, swap it out or send it for check up. Rifles usually take the blame for scope issues.

2) Take it apart, make sure it's not cracking, or rubbing.

3) Cleaning, I've been using some of the foams, and have seen remove copper from an
already "clean" barrel.

All that's been said, I also don't believe barrel is gone at 500 rounds. Is there a local gunsmith with a good borescope?

Good Luck.

 

[longrangehunterII]

Scope and/or bedding issues should be checked, swap a known scope after checking the barreled action is not moving from the recoil lug area in the stock.

Sweets 7.62 is a good/fast copper remover, don't let is sit in your barrel for more the 10 minutes each time. Barnes CR-10 is also very good at removing heavy copper, same deal, don't let it sit in your barrel more then 10 minutes. Fallow up with a good bore cleaner to remove the carbon, I like Shooter's Choice. If the throat has a lot of build up you might try using JB Bore cleaning compound and work the area in front of the throat for the first 6-9 inches with this product and continue down the bore, then remove with a good bore cleaner like Shooter's Choice. I like to use Kano Kroil with both products, both have been used for years with great success.

One way to tell if your barrel is cleaning up well is if the cleaning rod and jag/patch will easily move back and forth in the barrel. If not, there is fouling left behind that should be removed.

 

[left handed gun]

Follow up: after cleaning with JB bore compound, and running it by a smith who could not see anything obviously wrong with it, I took it out again.

Same generally bad results with Wby 180 grain soft points.

But with the first two Wby 165 grain Barnes TSX rounds, it seemed on its way to a better group. The holes were close to, though not quite touching. Trouble was, those were only two I had left.

So before I re-scope it, or send to Weatherby, I am going to try some 180 grain spire points. That's what they shot for the test target.

Only other thing I did differently was to let the bbl cool a little longer.

We'll see how the spire points do.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I had the same problem as the OP with a Mark V Accumark .257 Wby Mag I bought brand new in 2008. Shot great at first, then the barrel started caving in (apparantly) because after a couple hundred rounds the jag wouldn't hardly go down it, and the accuracy got HORRIBLE with factory fodder. With handloads it got around 1-1.5", which is what Wby guarantees (1.5").

I finally solved my problem on Saturday after several years of cursing, migraines, stress, and LOTS of money in quality ammo components...

I traded that buzzard back in to where I bought it from new. It shot 1"-1.5" with handloads, and was accurate enough to put meat in my freezer every time I pulled the trigger on a deer, so, no I didn't feel bad about trading it. Your average Alabama hunter will never know the difference...Since most shots around here aren't longer than 150 yards. But I am incredibly OCD about my guns. Also, they offered me $1K in trade value for it, so I wasn't fixing to turn it down, since I only paid $1,350 for it brand new, back in 2008.

 

[longrangehunterII]

That's one way to fix issues with a gun that fails to deliver MudRunner!

I did the same thing back in 2004 with a dealer that sold me a custom mauser 30-06 that wouldn't shoot, I even took it to the gunsmith that put it together and supposedly he put a different barrel on it yet it still sucked. A year later I took it back into the same gun store that I bought it from and thank God I had a different salesman. I figured since they wouldn't buy it back I'd trade it in..... I got a Kimber Montana 300WSM and a check for $400.00.

I remember wanting to get out of there before the owner found out what this salesman had just done, and when I looked back as I walked out the door I don't think he was too happy!

That same rifle is now my 6.5/300 WSM that shoots like a benchrest gun.

 

[longrangehunterII]

Follow up: after cleaning with JB bore compound, and running it by a smith who could not see anything obviously wrong with it, I took it out again.

Same generally bad results with Wby 180 grain soft points.

But with the first two Wby 165 grain Barnes TSX rounds, it seemed on its way to a better group. The holes were close to, though not quite touching. Trouble was, those were only two I had left.

So before I re-scope it, or send to Weatherby, I am going to try some 180 grain spire points. That's what they shot for the test target.

Only other thing I did differently was to let the bbl cool a little longer.

We'll see how the spire points do.

You'll need to allow the barrel to cool completely after 3 shots. The 300 Weatherby is a Hot round, and the barrel you have is rather thin, which will heat up a lot causing the rounds to walk.

From your prior cleaning routine I bet you left most of the fouling in the barrel. Factory barrels are hard to clean throughly in the first place, and since you only cleaned it after every 3rd trip from the range and 45 rounds down the tube you more then likely where leaving behind a lot of fouling.

You'll need to think of it like this, powder residue in the form of carbon with copper laid over each round as you fire. It needs to come off in layers, and isn't a quick job unless you have a custom barrel. It takes a long time and is work removing that much fouling left behind over so many years.

Question? Did you use a good bore cleaner like Shooters Choice between cleaning with the JB Bore Compound? Where you able to easily move the cleaning rod back and forth in the bore after cleaning? Did any patches come back out blue after being left in the bore for 10-15 minutes after using the JB Compound?

There's a product called Chameleon Gel made by BoreTech that is a color indicating cleaner and polish that if you have any fouling left it will turn a certain color for what's left in the barrel; blue/green-copper; black-carbon; gray-lead/moly; white-clean bore. This would help if you're not sure.

You'll need to test with a known load that was accurate, as well as check your scope, but from the sound of it I'd say a proper cleaning should bring it back?

 

[nosualc]

Buy yourself a can of wipe-out foam. $10-$12

Use a bore guide and squirt foam into until foam exits the muzzle. Wait a few hours. Squirt foam again. Put the rifle in a rest of some sort with the barrel slightly tipped down toward the muzzle. Put something underneath the muzzle like a newspaper. Let it sit over night, let the cleaner do the work (it won't hurt the bore).

If in the morning there is a blue pool of goo on the newspaper, your barrel was full of copper. If so, do it again.

When your down, patch out with rubbing alcohol, and dry patches.

Otherwise, find somebody with a bore-scope to take a look. It's the only way of really knowing if it's clean or damaged.

-nosualc

 

[nosualc]

Buy yourself a can of wipe-out foam. $10-$12

Use a bore guide and squirt foam into until foam exits the muzzle. Wait a few hours. Squirt foam again. Put the rifle in a rest of some sort with the barrel slightly tipped down toward the muzzle. Put something underneath the muzzle like a newspaper. Let it sit over night, let the cleaner do the work (it won't hurt the bore).

If in the morning there is a blue pool of goo on the newspaper, your barrel was full of copper. If so, scrub the bore with a nylon brush 10-12 times, reapply the foam and let it sit again.

When you're done (no more blue), patch out with rubbing alcohol, and dry patches.

Otherwise, find somebody with a bore-scope to take a look. It's the only way of really knowing if it's clean or damaged.

-nosualc

 

[AZShooter]

First off Hoppe's #9 won't remove copper. A guy at the range had a 7 rem mag that began to shoot poorly. He also used #9. My borescope showed extreme copper fouling. He had copper speed bumps in the bore!!! Honestly there were lumps here and there. I suggested he go after it with CR-10. I would have suggested Bore Tech Eliminator as the top choice but it is a mail order proposition. Regardless of the product the copper fouling must be removed. Unfortunately with many rounds through your barrel it could take a long time to get the crud out. If only you could get a look inside with a borescope then you would know.

If you do find a borescope check the throat to see if all the lands are the same length. Look for anomalies in the rifling and check the crown.

I question going with 65 in/lb of torque. That is really tight!!! I would try 40 in/lb and if you had to go tighter work your way up to perhaps 50 or 55. Worth trying.