Velocity Node Help

[Jayhawker7]

Hey everyone,

I'm in my second year of reloading and have been using the 10-shot Satterlee method. This year I put a new 24" Bartlein SS barrel on my Bergara B14 factory action in 7mm rem mag. Components are:
Peterson Brass - virgin
CCI 250 large rifle mag primers
Hogdon H1000 powder
150 grain Barnes TTSX bullets

I started with testing seating depth a few weeks ago and landed on 0.075" off the lands that gave me a 0.75" three-shot group. I did my 10-shot velocity ladder yesterday and got some interesting results. Also a bit disappointed with the velocity. Max load in the Barnes manual is 67.7 grains at 2998 fps. I went up to 68 grains. It looks like the most likely velocity node is between 66.2 and 67.1, but 2800 fps seems super slow for a 150 grain bullet out of a 7RM. I realize the barrel will speed up a bit, so I'm sure that will change.

Thoughts on where I should focus my efforts? Do the two shots at 67.4 and 67.7 represent a speed node, or would you avoid that node due to the drops on either side? Interesting that 68 grains dropped 50 fps from 67.7.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ShtrRdy]

A couple things.

When using new brass the velocity will generally be lower than brass that is forming to your chamber and resizing die.

I ended up not putting much faith in the Satterly/Audette velocity node approach.

if you're doing load development at 100 yards try the Optimal Charge Weight approach.

 

[Rick Richard]

I ended up not putting much faith in the Satterly/Audette velocity node approach.

if you're doing load development at 100 yards try the Optimal Charge Weight approach.

Me either

 

[HandgunHTR]

Me either

That makes three of us. I load for accuracy, not speed. Find the load that shoots the best in your setup and go with it. If you just have to have more speed, then change up your powder or bullet to see if you can get the speed you want with the accuracy you are going for.

Just one more thing. A 3-shot group gives next to no meaningful information on how accurate a load is. I shoot 5-shot group ladders, and then shoot at least 30 more shots of a given load to make my determination on velocity and accuracy.

 

[Jayhawker7]

That makes three of us. I load for accuracy, not speed. Find the load that shoots the best in your setup and go with it. If you just have to have more speed, then change up your powder or bullet to see if you can get the speed you want with the accuracy you are going for.

Just one more thing. A 3-shot group gives next to no meaningful information on how accurate a load is. I shoot 5-shot group ladders, and then shoot at least 30 more shots of a given load to make my determination on velocity and accuracy.

Thanks for the insight. I'm not seeking speed, but from my understanding of the Satterlee method, the velocity nodes are typically stable as far as a powder charge, and where he finds accuracy, as well. I also can't get to the range often, so trying to be as efficient as possible. I'll likely go back and do 3-5 shot ladders with the information I have now.

 

[Rick Richard]

Thanks for the insight. I'm not seeking speed, but from my understanding of the Satterlee method, the velocity nodes are typically stable as far as a powder charge, and where he finds accuracy, as well. I also can't get to the range often, so trying to be as efficient as possible. I'll likely go back and do 3-5 shot ladders with the information I have now.

I do three shot groups at 100 yards since I am looking for that obvious "tightest group". Then, I will play around with minute changes to the load to see if it gets better. I then experiment with seating depth. If I get good results, then I go for more rounds fired at longer distances looking for acceptable groupings.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Thanks for the insight. I'm not seeking speed, but from my understanding of the Satterlee method, the velocity nodes are typically stable as far as a powder charge, and where he finds accuracy, as well. I also can't get to the range often, so trying to be as efficient as possible. I'll likely go back and do 3-5 shot ladders with the information I have now.

That method just doesn't always work. More recently I noticed a "flat spot" in velocity as I homed in on a load for a 308 Win. So, sometimes a velocity flat spot is there. It doesn't always happen though.

Please watch this video:

" OCW " Optimal Charge Weight load development by Ryan Furman - Long Range Only

Ryan goes over his load development method incorporating the Optimal Charge Weight “OCW” process. To down load the suggested OCW target GO HERE To discuss this review or ask questions, Please GO HERE

www.longrangeonly.com

If you have access to 600 yard range please watch this video:

Ladder Testing for Long Range Load Development - Long Range Only

In this complete procedure video, Ryan goes over in depth, how he does ladder tests to quickly find a consistent and accurate long range hunting load. After watching the full video, you can ask questions or discuss the process HERE

www.longrangeonly.com

 

[74honker]

IME with Peterson brass is it will probably take 2x firings to get full fireform to your chamber. Until then your velocities won't be stable/settled. You can still get good groups, you will just have wide swings in velocity. You also probably have yet to break in the barrel and that will also affect velocity. Everytime you send a bullet downrange you learn something so 3 shot groups are just fine for now and once you get narrowed down more, then you can expand from there and repeat the test to make sure it's repeatable. I would think you should be at least 3k with a 150g but every barrel is different.

 

[Dmagna]

I have never been able to use virgin brass for testing. Especially in a belted magnum which can have a good amount of case stretch. I would get 2 firings and bump that shoulder .001 before starting this kind of test. The virgin brass will throw off the speeds.

 

[Pdyson]

Hey everyone,

I'm in my second year of reloading and have been using the 10-shot Satterlee method. This year I put a new 24" Bartlein SS barrel on my Bergara B14 factory action in 7mm rem mag. Components are:
Peterson Brass - virgin
CCI 250 large rifle mag primers
Hogdon H1000 powder
150 grain Barnes TTSX bullets

I started with testing seating depth a few weeks ago and landed on 0.075" off the lands that gave me a 0.75" three-shot group. I did my 10-shot velocity ladder yesterday and got some interesting results. Also a bit disappointed with the velocity. Max load in the Barnes manual is 67.7 grains at 2998 fps. I went up to 68 grains. It looks like the most likely velocity node is between 66.2 and 67.1, but 2800 fps seems super slow for a 150 grain bullet out of a 7RM. I realize the barrel will speed up a bit, so I'm sure that will change.

Thoughts on where I should focus my efforts? Do the two shots at 67.4 and 67.7 represent a speed node, or would you avoid that node due to the drops on either side? Interesting that 68 grains dropped 50 fps from 67.7.

Thanks in advance! View attachment 574765

I think 67.1 is a starting load and the velocity you achieved is not super low at that charge weight. Keep going up over at 68.5 and work up .3 to .5gr increments from there. My 24" barrel likes Retumbo better but with H1000 it shoots 3080 with 73.8gr H1K at a 3.225" COAL with Winchester LRM primers

 

[MagnumManiac]

Number one, never do ANY testing with powder on virgin brass, you're just wasting time and components because the case volume is gonna change drastically.
Reserve virgin brass for seating depth testing.
As to the Satterlee ladder test, what range are you shooting?
I test groups (OCW) at 100, then move to 300 to fine tune, then verify at 600. A 100yd group of 3 per charge weight is a course test that will garnish the tightest group, but it will not be statistically accurate.
I also don't test groups with a Chrony, test velocity once the groups are verified.

Cheers.

 

[biednick]

How many rounds did you shoot at each charge?

ETA- just saw you said 10 shot method so I'm guessing 1 at each charge. I'd load up 3 more ladders, run the test 3 more times, compare the results, and put some thought into how meaningful your results from a 10 shot ladder are.

 

[Jayhawker7]

Number one, never do ANY testing with powder on virgin brass, you're just wasting time and components because the case volume is gonna change drastically.
Reserve virgin brass for seating depth testing.
As to the Satterlee ladder test, what range are you shooting?
I test groups (OCW) at 100, then move to 300 to fine tune, then verify at 600. A 100yd group of 3 per charge weight is a course test that will garnish the tightest group, but it will not be statistically accurate.
I also don't test groups with a Chrony, test velocity once the groups are verified.

How many rounds did you shoot at each charge?

ETA- just saw you said 10 shot method so I'm guessing 1 at each charge. I'd load up 3 more ladders, run the test 3 more times, compare the results, and put some thought into how meaningful your results from a 10 shot ladder are.

I'm picking up what everyone is putting down. The method Scott Satterlee uses is not popular here

Lesson learned. Thanks for the input.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I'm picking up what everyone is putting down. The method Scott Satterlee uses is not popular here

Lesson learned. Thanks for the input.

Satterlee ladder test has it's merits for LR shooting at 1000 and beyond, but it only works at 600 or more, because it is designed to utilise a wide node where ES is not shifting with minor charge weight variation.
It's not that it is unliked, it just doesn't always show which load is going to be the best, just like ES/SD numbers are not the be all, end all result. Groups are where it gives you all the info, even if nothing else falls into place regarding ES/SD numbers.
You haven't said what range you tested at.

Cheers.