The old 25-06 Remington and 270 Winchester shot flatter than 6.5 CM

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Nov 21, 2018
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Germany
I currently live in Germany and have passed the German license course, exam, and am now licensed to hunt over here.
The German Government require at least 6.5mm to hunt big game athough that is slowly changing in some of the states: they are now requiring at least 7mm. The reason is simple, to many wounded animals.
Unlike the US, German laws require hunters to have access to a dog for trailing/finding wounded game but that still doesn’t keep wounded game from a slow and painful death - something we as hunters should take seriously.
I own a 6.5. Bought it mostly for long distance paper target and coyotes. Although I can use the 6.5 to hunt with, I use a 308 primarily because of Wild boar.
My primary target is usually Roe deer which are small and the 308 is a bit much, but the chance that I could encounter wild boar which will fall to the 6.5 and does frequently, makes me want a heavier bullet because seldom are the boar over here standing still.
Just because a caliber can kill an animal cleanly with a carefully placed shot, doesn’t mean it should be used.
I believe there is too much hype around the 6.5 and too many think it’s a miracle game getter: it isn’t.
Use the right gun/caliber combo, practice hunting shots (meaning not always shooting off the bench when you aren’t likely to have that option while hunting: practice like you’ll hunt) and shoot often and you’ll be better for it.
 

whitetail regulator

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I run 270win and creedmoor.....my 270 runs a lil slow at 3001 FPS with 130gr sst. My creed 2650 FPS with143 gr eldx ... at 600 yrds they both even out at 1000 ftlbs and 1800fps witch is the standard for ethical deer kills... I don’t believe this is a fair comparison because u can’t use as heavy for caliber bullets in the 270 win... when they start building 270 win with 1/8 twist and loading 150gr and heavier projectiles it will probably best the creed... in closing I love both rounds...I like the creed in a semiauto platform for follow up shots and lower recoil, however I have shot 7/8” at 500yrds with my factory 270 and factory ammo...and made my longest kill shot at 701yrds...would love to see 1/8 twist and heavy projectiles for 270...
 

whitetail regulator

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okc. oklahoma
I run 270win and creedmoor.....my 270 runs a lil slow at 3001 FPS with 130gr sst. My creed 2650 FPS with143 gr eldx ... at 600 yrds they both even out at 1000 ftlbs and 1800fps witch is the standard for ethical deer kills... I don’t believe this is a fair comparison because u can’t use as heavy for caliber bullets in the 270 win... when they start building 270 win with 1/8 twist and loading 150gr and heavier projectiles it will probably best the creed... in closing I love both rounds...I like the creed in a semiauto platform for follow up shots and lower recoil, however I have shot 7/8” at 500yrds with my factory 270 and factory ammo...and made my longest kill shot at 701yrds...would love to see 1/8 twist and heavy projectiles for 270...
Then we have an even playing field to compare cartridges...
 

HTJ

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Mar 3, 2013
Messages
59
Agree with Lance.....some of you guys are on a roll

Quick midway search ammo: 270 (52), 25-06 (25) 6.5x284 (8) and creedmoor (50). Plus hornady puts out the majority of options in all cartridges across the board, even hard to find. I have never seen hornady claim the creedmoor is the do all at any distance. It does keep a lot more guys shooting constantly though. I agree the 6.5 x284 is no slacker, but rifle availability and saami spec is the issue. Gunwerks even discussed this vs the prc.
Elk, well that just depends on what cartridge you are accurate with. Doesn't Kentucky have about 400 firearm permits per year? I guarantee that there are double that figure of elk killed in counties of wyoming on the openers with the 243. Hard to argue with experience and families that make it a generational thing killing with smaller diameter bullets.
I agree with you guys that all these calibers can kill an elk size animal within the proper distance and bullet placement. However I truly believe than no hunter, as long as they can shoot accurately with the caliber, should hunt any Bull Elk with less than a .30 cal! 338 WM with a 210-225 gr Nosler, Hornady, Swift A Frame, Barnes is a fantastic Elk caliber! 7 Mag is another good round with the proper round and placement. Forget those smaller calibers for elk. Most hunters can’t put 6 rounds into a 6 inch circle at 600 yards under hunting conditions! Keep your range limited to Your max ethical hunting range and it’s meat in the freezer with a very ethical shot! Period!
 

KayakJack

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Tacoma
All of this arguement over small calibers for hunting...I'm surprised no one is outraged that some of us hunt big game with archaic tools (archery). It is fine with proper shot placement, right?
 

Alibiiv

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All of this arguement over small calibers for hunting...I'm surprised no one is outraged that some of us hunt big game with archaic tools (archery). It is fine with proper shot placement, right?
Yup, and.....not all bows and not all bolts/arrows and not all broadheads are the same either!! Then........we’re back to shot placement! The same as caliber and as bullet weight and as bullet structure. Right??
 
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FastBullets

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My wife and I hunt together. We both get tags. She shoots a 257 WBY and I shoot a 300 Win. So far......she is in the lead with the biggest bull of our adventures together. Neither of us ever shoot over 800 yds. She caps herself at 400.
 

CRaTxn

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Cleburne,Texas
Here's my take on this list...

1) This is true, range finders are a game changer, but they're still just a tool.

2) Ballistically, yes... Performance on game, Hell no! In a target-only environment, the modern 6.5mm 130 will beat the .30 caliber 200 partition. But in a hunting environment, the 130 6.5mm will never compare to the performance of a 200gr .30 caliber bullet when it comes to penetration, damage, and kinetic energy exerted onto the target. You can't change physics.

3) Factory ammo is only as good as the rifle that shoots it (typically factory rifles). If the rifle is sh!t or the shooter can't shoot, the ammo will make no difference, and accuracy will still be horrible.

4) True, factory rifles are finally catching up to technology, and this is also pushing customs and aftermarket companies to do better as well.

5) Triggers make a big difference, agree on that 100%.

6) Optics tech has come a LONG way in just 10 years. Today's $500 scopes are on-par with $1,500 scopes of 10 years ago.

7) This is true, they are very helpful TOOLS, however, they don't put the bullet on target for you...That skill still needs to be practiced.
 

CRaTxn

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Cleburne,Texas
Mudrunner2005: I see we have more / much more agreement than dis-agreement. I think if we enjoyed an adult beverage together and fine tuned our definitions we would both view our arsenals as a bag of golf clubs with each tuned for its range of abilities and challenges.
I have been fortunate to hunt Africa on numerous safaris and "kill" scores of animals for trophy but more for feeding the villages. My little 7x57 with 160gr Barnes Xs and my 375H&H with solids and Barnes Xs have taken most everything up thru elephant but...it wasn't really the calibre nor the bullet so much as bullet placement. I use the shoulder/spine rather than the behind-the-shoulder heart shot when close enough. [ Shoulder "meat" is nothing more than layer upon layer of tough muscle separated by chewy facia...shoulder roasts are highly overrated ] I might not really qualify as a LRH as my longest elk was 675 yards. That is getting close to the max ethical for my skill set. Enjoyed reading your opinions.
 

Alibiiv

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All of this arguement over small calibers for hunting...I'm surprised no one is outraged that some of us hunt big game with archaic tools (archery). It is fine with proper shot placement, right?

Many years ago I was in Canada on a caribou hunt. The guide there was a well seasoned, French Canadian guide who had been guiding for many years. He told us that during the week previous to our hunt there were only two bow hunters; a two on one hunt instead of a six on one hunt. He stated that one guy could hit a fly at 50 yards, and the other couldn't hit a barn if he were standing inside of it with the windows and doors closed. The guide further stated that he'd seen caribou shot with just about every caliber available to man, and in just about every place imaginable; however, he had not ever seen as much damage as he had seen on a caribou that had been shot in the rear quarter with an arrow from the hunter who couldn't shoot. Those "archaic tools" bear a lot of respect in the hunting arena. I've seen many bears destroyed with them, and I have also seen as many bears that were wounded and had to be tracked down and terminated. Shot placement and the right equipment is key!
 

Pmacc60

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Feb 8, 2013
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434
Was this sarcastic? My experience has been you don’t need custom rifles and handloads anymore to shoot tiny groups and get long range performance. Rifle and ammo manufacturers have stepped up their game. Its not hard to find a factory rifle using factory ammo that will shoot sub moa out to 1000 yards. Don’t know about the axis, but I have seen a kid use a 6.5 creed ruger american with a vortex hslr 4-16x44 paint a 5” group at 700 yards with hornady match ammo. That whole gun was put together for less
no sarcasium just plain fact, to get the
Was this sarcastic? My experience has been you don’t need custom rifles and handloads anymore to shoot tiny groups and get long range performance. Rifle and ammo manufacturers have stepped up their game. Its not hard to find a factory rifle using factory ammo that will shoot sub moa out to 1000 yards. Don’t know about the axis, but I have seen a kid use a 6.5 creed ruger american with a vortex hslr 4-16x44 paint a 5” group at 700 yards with hornady match ammo. That whole gun was put together for less than $1000.
Its not sarcastic just plain fact, yes rifles are better ammo and glass too but your buddy is fortunate not the rule. Experience tells me much of the time you get what you pay for and it takes work to get your rifle dialed in.
 

MudRunner2005

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Oct 13, 2008
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Alabama
I currently live in Germany and have passed the German license course, exam, and am now licensed to hunt over here.
The German Government require at least 6.5mm to hunt big game athough that is slowly changing in some of the states: they are now requiring at least 7mm. The reason is simple, to many wounded animals.
Unlike the US, German laws require hunters to have access to a dog for trailing/finding wounded game but that still doesn’t keep wounded game from a slow and painful death - something we as hunters should take seriously.
I own a 6.5. Bought it mostly for long distance paper target and coyotes. Although I can use the 6.5 to hunt with, I use a 308 primarily because of Wild boar.
My primary target is usually Roe deer which are small and the 308 is a bit much, but the chance that I could encounter wild boar which will fall to the 6.5 and does frequently, makes me want a heavier bullet because seldom are the boar over here standing still.
Just because a caliber can kill an animal cleanly with a carefully placed shot, doesn’t mean it should be used.
I believe there is too much hype around the 6.5 and too many think it’s a miracle game getter: it isn’t.
Use the right gun/caliber combo, practice hunting shots (meaning not always shooting off the bench when you aren’t likely to have that option while hunting: practice like you’ll hunt) and shoot often and you’ll be better for it.
Excellent post! And welcome to the forum.

I'm also of mostly Saxon/Germanic heritage. That's a nice moose in your avatar...Do you hunt in the Schwarzwald?
 

FIGJAM

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Southeast, Idaho
no sarcasium just plain fact, to get the

Its not sarcastic just plain fact, yes rifles are better ammo and glass too but your buddy is fortunate not the rule. Experience tells me much of the time you get what you pay for and it takes work to get your rifle dialed in.
I agree that you are more likely to get really small, < 1/2”, groups with customs. And with glass, 99% of the time you get what you pay for, although the law of diminishing marginal returns applies. A lot of rifle manufacturers are guaranteeing moa with premium factory loads and with all this long range shooting popularity there are some really nice factory rounds available. I just point that out because it is easier nowadays than ever before to get lucky with cheap factory guns, optics and ammo. I will never talk anybody out of spending coin on guns and optics tho.
 

FIGJAM

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Southeast, Idaho
All of this arguement over small calibers for hunting...I'm surprised no one is outraged that some of us hunt big game with archaic tools (archery). It is fine with proper shot placement, right?

I think a lot of the pushback comes from this being a long range site - so retained energy and performance at 600-1200 yards is really the debate with these smaller rounds. If we were discussing these calibers in the context of 0-300 yards on a different site, I think there would be less argument.
 
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