Sorting Brass and Bullets?

[Lonewolf74]

So I have read a lot and found that there is quite a few differing opinions on how to sort brass and bullets. Some guys go off weight some guys go off capacity some go off measurements and some do a combination.

So I would just like to hear all your different methods and opinions of what makes the biggest difference or if some think most of it is a waist of time?

 

[Trnelson]

I sort by weight. It quickly allows me to segregate into 1g lots. I trade what I don't use with my buddies and we all end up with more of what we want. If the exterior dimensions are the same then any variation in weight is related to a change in internal volume. Heavier means thicker brass with less internal volume. If you are hoping to load close to max and are using 'lite' brass and have an extremely heavy one sneak through you'll be pretty far over maximum pressure.
Quick extreme examples sand most commonly found of empty brass trimmed for length
5.56x45 88g-105g 91g-93g is most common
7.62x51 149g-178g 168g-172g is most common
.30/06 174g-205 182g-186g is most common
I sort bullets for my long range hunting rifles as well but that's a whole other thread.

 

[J E Custom]

So I have read a lot and found that there is quite a few differing opinions on how to sort brass and bullets. Some guys go off weight some guys go off capacity some go off measurements and some do a combination.

So I would just like to hear all your different methods and opinions of what makes the biggest difference or if some think most of it is a waist of time?

Sorting is done to get consistency in all components. the method may vary, but the results are what counts.

I weight sort the brass only after I have full length size, trim, de-bur, uniform the flash hole, and turn the necks so that hopefully the brass is as dimensionally uniform as possible before they are weighed so I feel confident that the volume is very close.

The bullets are weighed only after they get the Meplat trimmed, the Ojive to base dimension sorted
and then weighed.

I only do this if it is a match rifle or long range hunting rifle where every bit of accuracy is necessary. If I have a load that is more than accurate enough to do the job some of this may not be necessary.

It also allows you to evaluate the quality of the components and eliminate poor quality components.

No matter what method you use, the goal is to have very consistent components for the best predictable accuracy.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Mikecr]

Very important in consideration of various sortings that people do, are the qualifying attributes behind each. It's often difficult to separate measurements into single attributes, so many measurements end up products of multiple things. And where you act on combinations standing unqualified, you could be merely screwing things up.

An example of this is where people sort bullets by base to ogive(BTO).
If you separated the individual attributes included in this one measure, and then plugged them in with all other bullet attributes to determine the final result, you would see that sorting BTO in itself was never a credible action, and rarely useful. In fact, it could be exactly the wrong action.
I'm confident testing would show this -with exception of huge anomalies(that's the value in the endeavor).

It helps to understand each individual attribute. That is, it's contribution potential good and bad.
Two cases weighing exactly the same can have significantly different H20 capacities. Think about why & how you should act on that. Two cases with same overall neck thickness, one having more variance than the other. What will that mean?

 

[243winxb]

After prep, sort brass by 3/10 gr. in 243 win.

 

[Lonewolf74]

Thanks all for the replies!

Mikecr could you expand some more on what you said?
It's more the why people use the method they use and what effects what that I'm interested in. In your example of 2 cases weighing the same but having different H2O capacity what would that mean? Which is more important?

 

[Mikecr]

Well, the only attribute behind weight sorting of brass(that I can think of) is capacity. Most people do it because it takes no effort, while measuring actual capacity takes a good bit of effort. Managing capacity takes way more effort.
Why does capacity matter?
Anyone that has seen shifts from new brass to fire formed brass(regardless of weights) has seen why it matters. It's initial confinement, and pressure peak shaping, and it will hose up a good tune.

There can be different weight distribution in cases, and the sized dimensions affect capacity more.
Two cases weighing the same, smash one flat with a hammer, they both still weigh the same,, totally different capacities. By 5 firing/FL sizing cycles, measured H20 capacities will not follow a matched brass weight plan. The variances grow as each sizing affects elasticity, leading to brass springing back to varying dimensions all over the place. That brass trimmed away at case mouths with reload cycles? Not an even amount case to case, and directly affecting capacities.
Bottom line; case weight does not directly correlate with it's H20 capacity. If you want matched capacities, you'll have to suck it up and actually measure it. And in doing so, learning how to credibly measure capacities, you'll learn a lot about brass and sizing.

I personally do not bother with weighing, until I'm measuring H20 capacities. This, after 3rd fire forming, with no sizing. The cases I cull out are usually due to capacity shifts, not overall weight.

 

[jimbires]

I have a few case capacities wrote down for when I use quickload . I check these after 2 or 3 firings with only a neck size each time . I try to get the case fully expanded so it chambers a little tight in my rifle before I check water capacity .


empty case ............................full case .............................. water capacity
240.34 ............................ 325.44 ............................ 85.10
235.04 ............................ 320.28 ............................. 85.24
236.64 ........................... 321.82 ............................ 85.18
237.02 ........................... 322.58 ............................ 85.56
236.20 ........................... 321.62 ............................ 85.42

different rifle cartridge

332.62 ............................... 449.20 ............................ 116.58
333.54 ............................... 449.46 ............................ 115.92
336.80 ............................... 452.18 ........................... 115.38

 

[Lonewolf74]

So you only measure water capacity after a few firings and to measure you first weigh the empty case with spent primer still in then weigh it filled with water?

How much difference does it take to see the effects on paper, half grain, 1-2 grains?

 

[J E Custom]

I agree with almost everything said except that weighing doesn't do any good.

I started out volume testing when I started trying to improve accuracy and used as many mediums
as possible even making up a solution with a wetting agent that would eliminate surface tension.

I also used alcohol and other cleaning agents. that all worked well except for the mess and storage
of these products. Also I tried different powders, (Mostly ball powders because they measure good) I also used all of the latest tools to measure volume. (Buret)

I decided to evaluate weighting and see how effective/accurate it was compared to volume testing. I found that if I totally prepped the brass as mentioned, and the outside was dimensionally consistent/the same before it was fired, it was very accurate. I also like the fired cases idea because it is probably the best chance of getting the outside of the case dimensionally the same and as long as you trim to length, and de-cap the primer. Spent primers sometimes gave me different volumes in the same case and all I could figure was that they sometimes held a bubble, so I de-caped and reversed the primer to seal the primer pocket for better/more consistent results. This added time and effort to the process of volume testing.

Even though time is not a problem for me, and my philosophy is "No matter what it takes", If I can streamline a process and get as good or better results I will. and weight sorting does this as long as total case prep is done before weighing.

There is a very simple explanation why it works if done right. If the brass is dimensionally identical on the outside,
the only thing that can change the weight is brass thickness. if it is heavier, the brass thickness is greater. If it is lighter the brass thickness thinner. Lighter brass, more volume. heaver brass, less volume. Simple.

What I found in comparing the two processes, They can both be very accurate if good procedures are used before the actual test is performed. The difference between doing which ever process you want to and not doing anything can definitely be measured in accuracy. the difference between the two if both are done right, cant.

The bullet checking is another part of the consistency process but it does have an effect on the case volume. This is the reason I verify the consistency of the bullet base to the Ojive. if this dimension is not the same, when the bullet is seated using the bullet seater it makes contact and presses on the Ojive. if the dimension is different the base of the bullet is in a slightly different place in the case and can change the case volume slightly. This change may be miniscule, but it is all part of making everything as consistent as possible. bullet prep can also increase the accuracy of a rifle if the shooter has the desire to improve the accuracy.

I totally agree that under real hunting conditions many of the accuracy procedures cannot be measured because of shooter error, but in a bench test environment they can easily improve accuracy and consistency (SDs and ESs).

Just my opinion based on over 50 years of shooting and loading accuracy ammo.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Barrelnut]

I setup a test for weight sorting vs volume sorting for brass one time. Used 100 cases Hornady 6.5 Creed, 50 Norma WSM and 50 Federal 300 RUM. They were once or trice fired with the spent primer left in.

I recorded weight and volume for each. (Actually checked one group twice to verify how accurate I was measuring.) I entered all this in a spreadsheet and sorted by weight and the volume. 80% of all three lots of brass sorted the same either by weight or volume.

A rather small sampling but I concluded that, on average, if you sorted 10 cases by weight or volume, only about 2 out of 10 would sort differently. And that difference often was not enough to matter. I do remember a few that sorted differently had a significant difference though. For my needs, I now only weight sort. I think I can afford to let the chips fall where they may on the questionable 20%

 

[Mikecr]

So you only measure water capacity after a few firings and to measure you first weigh the empty case with spent primer still in then weigh it filled with water?
How much difference does it take to see the effects on paper, half grain, 1-2 grains?

I'm currently using a 21st century primer pocket plug for H20 measure.
Only QuickLoad math can predict the muzzle velocity difference. Your chronograph tells you this by measure. Your target tells you about tune. You should know at least prediction before acting on anything.

 

[J E Custom]

How much difference does it take to see the effects on paper, half grain, 1-2 grains?

You are not looking for a loss or gain in case capacity, Only a very consistent volume inside the cases to be tested. The gain in case capacity may give you more velocity, But if the case volume is not consistent, the higher velocity may not be consistent round to round increasing the SDs and ESs.

What I have found by sorting brass and bullets as described, Is that it is easer to work up accurate loads because of the consistency and when you get very low SDs you probably will have a very good load if everything else is consistent. If I have good SDs, and poor groups I change bullets or try different seating depths because I know that I have a good combination of powder, primer, case volume, neck tension and concentricity. Note: (sometimes it is just the shooter having a bad day)

Its like practice, The best load in the world, cant make up for lack of practice. so we try to eliminate every problem we can and develop consistency in our loading to help when we are having a bad day.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Lonewolf74]

Thanks again for all the replies.

And just to clarify, when I asked how much it would take to see a difference on paper I didn't mean changing the charge at all but using the same charge in cases with different capacities. I know in theory a case with the same charge but less capacity will produce higher pressure. I was asking at what point would this be noticeable, 1-2 gr difference in case capacity, more, less?