shot conformation

[ARlife4me]

When doing single shot testing does anyone do 2 shot per for conformation? I state this as maybe the 2nd shot could be further away? Are the single shot test you do for velocity nodes and pressure test or accuracy? All I've done is load, shoot and zero optic. Reading so much of what most have done on this forum is driving me to the nut house . I'm not overthinking unless it's math involved word problems that I know too much about. You know the ones about flying from 1 place to another? Factor in taking off from the west coast (Long Beach Airport) requiring you to fly out 2 miles over the Pacific before coming back over land. Then you have clearance authorizing for altitude change, time loss due to altitude change going from 10k to 40k. The it's vector change and decent for landing. See what I mean!

I've never tried any ladder or pressure test, but will need to as I've accumulated more than just the pre'64 to shoot.

 

[biednick]

1 shot tells you next to nothing. 2 shots, not much more. 3-5 can tell you if you're barking up the wrong tree. 10 will show you you're on the right track. 25-30 is adequate when you're taking measurements on a final load or chasing minute improvements.

Personally I don't run ladders with less than 5 of each load.

 

[Mikecr]

1 shot tells you next to nothing.

It's SINGLE SHOT testing.
Eventually, each single shot defines your actual capability.
That said;

When doing single shot testing does anyone do 2 shot per for conformation?

I shoot followups very early, to see if the gun has any potential.
Then I focus purely on single shot accuracy.

There are are guns that cannot hold a 2nd shot with the first cold bore shot.
My last with this issue was a new Tubb T2K (tube gun in 6XC), which I had bought for hunting.
While it did what it was designed for (tight 600yd grouping) very well, I could tell right off that it had zero potential for LR hunting shots.
So I had fun with the gun for a bit & sold it off.

This is really the test that told me all I needed to know:

For my cold bore testing, I begin at 200yds and 10min shot rate. This is because it's the worst performing condition I am aware of.
That is, when it shoots good under this condition, it will shoot better under any other.
Anyway, the high spread shots were 10min each, with an immediate followup that formed a group along the target edge.
This was not the best cold bore load, and the brass was new/unfired, but it doesn't matter because the followup shots told me all I needed for this test (which is why I do it). A good test to do while fire forming brass.

A stable system, at 200yds, would put each in a 2sht group at least touching.
A good cold bore load would put them all inside that target.
I could develop with this gun to putting fully cold bore inside the target, but I would forever know that a followup would depart.
So given varying field conditions, i could never really know that my 1st shot could be relied on either.
No amount of load development can fix this, so you can save a lot of tail chasing right here. It passes the test, or fails.

 

[ARlife4me]

So, would ladder be more for bc confirming?

 

[biednick]

It's SINGLE SHOT testing.

Single shot testing is largely a waste of time because a single shot tells you next to nothing. There's no situation in which a sample size of 1 gives you any meaningful information about a larger group. You have no way of knowing where that sample falls in the expected spread you'll see over the whole group. Shooting more rounds gives you a rough idea of what that spread will look like. Shooting high round count groups or aggregating multiple low round count groups gives you a pretty accurate picture of what you'll see over many rounds.

It's a stochastic system, not a stable system. The best we can do is use statistical analysis to predict the region in which a shot will land. Doing so requires a large enough sample size to create an accurate estimate. The required sample size depends on what level of confidence is desired. For precision rifles I strive to capture the 1 in 20 outliers, but don't worry too much about the 1 in 300 outliers. That comes late in the load development process. In the early stages lower round count groups can eliminate bad loads and point you towards good loads. A single round does neither.

 

[Mark37082]

The only time I shoot single shot ladders is to find pressure. Sometimes it can give you some idea of potential nodes if velocity is somewhat flat between different loads. With the price of components being high, I usually start with 3 shot groups just below pressure to see if my velocity spread is reasonable. It will give me an indication at this point whether the bullet powder combination is worth pursuing. My rifles are for hunting and having fun at the range. 1/2 MOA is what I am striving for over 5 shots in multiple sessions in stable wind.

 

[Mikecr]

So, would ladder be more for bc confirming?

There are phases to the whole thing.
1st are the prerequisites; optimum primers/striking, and optimum seating depth.
Then you go into hot precision (grouping) load development. This is powder-then tuner, or barrel tune (ladder).
Take your pick, but barrel tune is dominant over powder tune.

With your best hot barrel precision, move to cold bore accuracy testing.
This can take you away from a hot bore load, but hopefully not far. Could take a long time if it does.

 

[cdherman]

There are phases to the whole thing.
1st are the prerequisites; optimum primers/striking, and optimum seating depth.
Then you go into hot precision (grouping) load development. This is powder-then tuner, or barrel tune (ladder).
Take your pick, but barrel tune is dominant over powder tune.

With your best hot barrel precision, move to cold bore accuracy testing.
This can take you away from a hot bore load, but hopefully not far. Could take a long time if it does.

Sadly, Mike there are two separate conversations here. Cold bore "single shot" testing is totally real, but only occurs at the end of development, as you allude to. Its not to determine nodes or BC or much of anything, EXCEPT, is my rifle cold bore, first shot on target? Which really does matter. If you hunt.....

Your earlier post about second shot is also interesting. Wow. Warm bore was grouping fine. Cold bore, not so much. Wish I had thought of that. I shot my Tikka 6.5x55 every 30 min over the course of a relatively stable session (weather, wind, temp etc) and was happy with the approx 1.25" 5x group (T3 Lite, tiny gun), but shooting immediate second second shot would have been brilliant. Better still, for a gun that was less out of wack than yours, shoot the second shot at a target 3" to the side, to avoid trouble remembering which holes are what............

 

[Mikecr]

My end goal for each rifle is cold bore accuracy.
I've had excellent hot grouping guns that were not cold accurate enough. The tube gun I described is one of them.
I've had terrible hot precision from guns that were very cold accurate.
Once in a while I run across good for both, but there is usually something limiting dual use.

This is why I lack confidence in associations of competition shooting, and LR hunting shooting, whenever a competition separates participants by precision -instead of accuracy.
For instance, most guns built in 6PPC hold potential for incredible precision. But many of them are not incredibly accurate, especially cold bore accurate.
Some are both, and then the limitation -> no good for either beyond 300-400yds.

 

[Mark37082]

This is an interesting discussion. It is a bit worrisome to be honest. I guess I need to change my process when I head to the range. Paying more attention to those first fouling shots for my hunting rifles is in order. I generally hunt with a fouled barrel, but never with a warm barrel unless I am varmint hunting. It makes a great deal of sense when I think about it. I probably need to invest in a barrel cooler, but it's hard to replicate the actual temperatures I will be hunting in.

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

This is an interesting discussion. It is a bit worrisome to be honest. I guess I need to change my process when I head to the range. Paying more attention to those first fouling shots for my hunting rifles is in order. I generally hunt with a fouled barrel, but never with a warm barrel unless I am varmint hunting. It makes a great deal of sense when I think about it. I probably need to invest in a barrel cooler, but it's hard to replicate the actual temperatures I will be hunting in.

Get yourself a deep freezer setup at the range. Easy peasy. It would all be good till the bullet left the freezer. But then, I suppose we would have another conundrum to deal with. But at least you, ammo & firearm would be nice and cold. lol

 

[Unoboats]

Get yourself a deep freezer setup at the range. Easy peasy. It would all be good till the bullet left the freezer. But then, I suppose we would have another conundrum to deal with. Once the bullet left the freezer. But at least you, ammo & firearm would be nice and cold. lol

Scope will fog up for sure.

 

[JaredLove]

You can do single shot testing for a node, but you would have to do the same test multiple times. Different days, different temps, different everything each test. I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of time. 3-5 shot tests have always worked well for me. Once I find a good node, I run with it. I also try to check how my gun is performing each and every time I shoot. Different D.A. (density altitude), humidity, temp, blah blah blah all adds up to good D.O.P.E. for all weather conditions. Hope this helps and doesn't add to your insanity.

 

[Radman]

When doing single shot testing does anyone do 2 shot per for conformation? I state this as maybe the 2nd shot could be further away? Are the single shot test you do for velocity nodes and pressure test or accuracy? All I've done is load, shoot and zero optic. Reading so much of what most have done on this forum is driving me to the nut house . I'm not overthinking unless it's math involved word problems that I know too much about. You know the ones about flying from 1 place to another? Factor in taking off from the west coast (Long Beach Airport) requiring you to fly out 2 miles over the Pacific before coming back over land. Then you have clearance authorizing for altitude change, time loss due to altitude change going from 10k to 40k. The it's vector change and decent for landing. See what I mean!

I've never tried any ladder or pressure test, but will need to as I've accumulated more than just the pre'64 to shoot.

I always wait on my 2nd shot before depending on my accuracy.