Scope field evaluations on rokslide

[buzby]

Again I would argue you get what you pay for! At the $600 and below price point you can either have tough reliability or you can have features but probably not both.

why is that an argument, it's pretty much what I said?

. The Helos offers better glass but lacks the ruggedness. You can have one but not both in most cases. This complaint and comparison is unrealistic.

I didn't make any comparisons.

 

[Paladin300]

why is that an argument, it's pretty much what I said?

I didn't make any comparisons.

I wasn't arguing with you per say but rather agreeing. I am arguing with the tenet of the thought that one is some how getting or thinks he can get the same quality in a $500 scope that he gets in a $1500+ scope or that a $1500 scope is somehow on the same playing field as a $3500 scope. The whole thing just kind of puzzles me. We all want to shoot the best we can afford. But the average guy can't show up with his Arken and honestly expect to compete with a NF or S&B , can he? To me the whole discussion is rather ludicrous. The test should divide the scopes into about five categories and then tell us who passed and who failed in each category for reliability. Then each scope should be judged for function and features against all other winners. There the tier 1s would separate themselves from the rest. I have never seen a sub $500 scope that would realistically let you shoot 600-1000 yards in adverse conditions. There are some that you could use if conditions are perfect but how often does that happen when hunting? Anyway my mind was just walking through several thoughts and it all just kind of came out as I was agreeing to some extent with your post. Apologies!

 

[buzby]

I wasn't arguing with you per se but rather agreeing. I am arguing with the tenet of the thought that one is some how getting or thinks he can get the same quality in a $500 scope that he gets in a $1500+ scope or that a $1500 scope is somehow on the same playing field as a $3500 scope. The whole thing just kind of puzzles me. We all want to shoot the best we can afford. But the average guy can't show up with his Arken and honestly expect to compete with a NF or S&B , can he? To me the whole discussion is rather ludicrous. The test should divide the scopes into about five categories and then tell us who passed and who failed in each category for reliability. Then each scope should be judged for function and features against all other winners. There the tier 1s would separate themselves from the rest. I have never seen a sub $500 scope that would realistically let you shoot 600-1000 yards in adverse conditions. There are some that you could use if conditions are perfect but how often does that happen when hunting? Anyway my mind was just walking through several thoughts and it all just kind of came out as I was agreeing to some extent with your post. Apologies!

I agree, there's no free lunch. I think most people believe
A; glass quality is the main driver of price
B; and any scope should hold zero, if not beat up.
Of course it isn't true.

I have seen a good number of people claim NF is over priced due to glass quality not being on par with brand X of the same cost. And SWFA is crap and outdated.

No one would buy a scope that they thought would lose zero riding in their truck.

 

[OG10]

Mil dots and moa turrets , I remember those days…All things made by man can fail.I have had a NF fail ,a Trijicon Ten Mile fail, and a S&B sent back for service.The point is if you shoot enough things fail,a sample of one is not always conclusive the new NF turrets are fine and holding zero, the Ten Mile doing fine, and S&B particles from inside the scope have not come back.Shoot more worry less…

 

[cooperjd]

The test should divide the scopes into about five categories and then tell us who passed and who failed in each category for reliability. Then each scope should be judged for function and features against all other winners. There the tier 1s would separate themselves from the rest.

when i start playing (doubtful) and win the powerball i will quit my job and set up those tests. sounds like a fun youtube channel.

IIRC Form stated he is testing these based on a heavy use hunting scope. Not a 2-miler or PRS. However, even that leaves room, hunting at what distances? 400, 800, 1200? 1200 yards with a bulletproof swfa fixed 6x might be impossible; so it goes back to your point of one has to choose a scope for their specific needs and criteria.

The good news is that our country is still so great that we get to spend time on computers and phones bickering over which $2,000 toy is best.

 

[orkan]

which $2,000 toy is best.

None of them. None of them are best... not at $2000 in 2023. lol


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[cajun]

You know a lot depends on if your a back country hunter or a back 40 hunter and if your dialing a lot. I've hunted leupolds on the back 40 for years. No noticeable zero shift banging around in a sxs or 4 wheeler. If you drop it or bang it hard common sense says check your zero. For a back 40 guy no big deal. If you hunt the back country or off the beaten path and your dialing then it would be a NF for me.

 

[Rick Richard]

You know a lot depends on if your a back country hunter or a back 40 hunter and if your dialing a lot. I've hunted leupolds on the back 40 for years. No noticeable zero shift banging around in a sxs or 4 wheeler. If you drop it or bang it hard common sense says check your zero. For a back 40 guy no big deal. If you hunt the back country or off the beaten path and your dialing then it would be a NF for me.

Well said!

 

[orkan]

This thread is so enjoyable...

I mean from the sad humor perspective.

I wonder how many here remember what a S&B PMII cost in 2005. Or a USO? A Leupold MK4? It's not like nightforce was cheap back then either, yet they were literally the "dead last" manufacturer of that era to offer a FFP/Mil/Mil scope.

The truth is, top end scopes are better now, than they've ever been. The cost of this stuff, has pretty much paced right on with inflation... but we're getting a significantly better product compared to back then.

Choking down leupold VX3 prices wasn't any fun back in the old millenia. Then I moved to nightforce, and that was even less fun. The year was 2010 and Vortex delivered a FFP razor to my house. $2000 in 2010 was an ugly pill, but it was a lot of scope at that price. Well 2,000 dollars in 2010 is worth about $3,000 today, if you believe the inflation calculator. (which I don't) $2,000 in 2010 felt like at least some buying power, today it feels like nothing.

Look at the original vortex razor... then look at scopes vortex is selling today for $800, and you'll see the cheaper thing today... having an equal feature set and superior performance in every metric we measure.

All you newbies don't know how good you have it. Those of us that were in this discipline during the "Dark Times" of the 90's during the clinton presidency, remember what it was like to have literally one or two scopes to choose from, at any price. We had next to no choices, and the choices we had, sucked. Even the early 2000's were terrible. The past decade has made this discipline what it is. It's truly a wonderous time to be a precision rifle shooter.

I still have a few S&B PMII 5-25's kicking around here, but those old scopes are just flat inferior to what we have today.



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[Dirtrax]

@orkan you have been on point in this thread repeatedly.

 

[Hotmail]

Again I would argue you get what you pay for! At the $600 and below price point you can either have tough reliability or you can have features but probably not both. The Athlon Cronus BTR Gen 2 is absolutely reliable and tough as nails with exceptional glass. In my opinion it may be the best value out there but its price point is $1700-2000. That price point buys you a lot of scope. Surely people are not expecting to get the same quality in a $500 scope? The Ares ETR is a nice option as well but it is a $1100-1500 scope. Again when talking tier one scopes there are few options that will not do what you ask of them. The Helos is a $499 scope. It belongs in the same category as every other scope in that price point. The SWFA gives you rugged reliability but poor glass quality, not suitable for shooting in extreme conditions more than 600 yards realistically. The Helos offers better glass but lacks the ruggedness. You can have one but not both in most cases. This complaint and comparison is unrealistic. It is like comparing a Razor Gen 3 to a Diamondback and griping because your DB scope broke. They are not the same animal and never will be even though they have similar features. Its like buying a 2-wheel drive Silverado W/T and then complaining that it will not go or do what you buddies Z-71Trail Boss will. At the same time you may not need all the Z-71 has to offer. Again, need should drive your purchase. Don't buy more scope than you need or know how to use. Start small and work your way up as you out grow your present set up.

Athlon has very questionable warranty practices. I had first hand experience buying a defective Cronus 4.5-29x56 they wouldn't fix or replace that was obviously defective straight out of the box. I hadn't even mounted it yet.

I had better luck with several of their Chinese Ares and Midas Tac scopes no problems so far but I'm no longer buying anything from Athlon after my own warranty experience with them.

Bushnell is another brand I avoid buying for the very same reasons not honoring their lifetime warranty.

They may take care of some of their customers but I can say for a fact they don't and won't take care of everyone who buys their brands of products.

 

[Paladin300]

Athlon has very questionable warranty practices. I had first hand experience buying a defective Cronus 4.5-29x56 they wouldn't fix or replace that was obviously defective straight out of the box. I hadn't even mounted it yet.

I had better luck with several of their Chinese Ares and Midas Tac scopes no problems so far but I'm no longer buying anything from Athlon after my own warranty experience with them.

Bushnell is another brand I avoid buying for the very same reasons not honoring their lifetime warranty.

They may take care of some of their customers but I can say for a fact they don't and won't take care of everyone who buys their brands of products.

That is interesting??? Athlon has a no questions asked warranty was my understanding. It is also transferable if I am not mistaken but I could be wrong. I had a Midas Tac 5-25 that came out of the box with a chip in one of the lenses. I also had a sun shade in which the entire front bell cap came off the same scope. The scope functioned as it should and held zero but the cosmetic issues were a problem. It is one of four scopes I have had to return for warranty work in my lifetime. I have two Cronus and have never had an issue. I mailed the Midas back to them with the appropriate form and got a brand new replacement back within a week, NIB with no issues, never unboxed it. It was still in the shrink wrap. Sold it and bought my second Cronus. I like the Ares ETR as well. To me their two flag ship scopes are premium scopes. The glass in the Cronus is incredible. I like the turrets as well and neither has ever lost zero or failed to track. The Athlon guys have never been anything but helpful to me. I have spoken with them on several occasions and they are alway fun to talk to and converse with on scope and shooting issues. You can usually speak to someone fairly quickly. I haven't spoken to them recently so things could have changed? I sent a S&B back for repairs and it came back in 10 days. They also are a class outfit. Had a Leupold reticle replaced, scope came back in less than two weeks, that was several years ago. I am sorry you had an issue but my experience says that is not the norm. All of them, Leupold, NF, Athlon, S&B and IOR Valada have never been anything but helpful. They are all good guys, at least the ones I have worked with.

 

[Dirtrax]

Athlon has very questionable warranty practices. I had first hand experience buying a defective Cronus 4.5-29x56 they wouldn't fix or replace that was obviously defective straight out of the box. I hadn't even mounted it yet.

I had better luck with several of their Chinese Ares and Midas Tac scopes no problems so far but I'm no longer buying anything from Athlon after my own warranty experience with them.

Bushnell is another brand I avoid buying for the very same reasons not honoring their lifetime warranty.

They may take care of some of their customers but I can say for a fact they don't and won't take care of everyone who buys their brands of products.

Troll…Paladin300 you're wasting your breath.
Nothing here to see, move along.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Operating in the outdoors is a bit different than in a hospital setting. I can appreciate the amount of care and caution medical staff will take especially in a stressful situation, but the outdoors is far different. The constant changing terrain, weather conditions, and even need to move quickly can cause a spill. This only gets magnified when you get up in the years like myself lol. When I was a young wrestler it was easy to catch myself when the ground would give out under me. A few years back a lava rock caught my boot sending me tumbling down a rock pile, and it wasn't gracefull lol. My mind instantly flashed to my Judo training and I thought of tucking and rolling. My Dad bod said "Here hold my beer and watch this....".

I know what you mean. Almost 76 now and age is catching up with me.