Neck sizing with FL dies

[Robinhood493]

Can I neck size my brass with my Hornady FL dies? Or do I need to buy a neck sizing die?

 

[Hunter2678]

Yes its possible, but not the thourough way to do it.

 

[Robinhood493]

Would I just back the die body out of the press just a hair so it does not bump the shoulder?

 

[Joe King]

No. Your partial resizing, your still dragging the expander ball back through the neck which is part of the benefit of a neck die. Can you get good results? absolutely! I do it with some of my rifles. But it is not the same thing as neck sizing. A neck die does not size the body at all, if you turn a FL die out enough to leave the body alone, your only sizing a small portion of the neck. and inexpensive option is the Lee collet die.

 

[Bart B]

When folks back a bottleneck full length sizing die up a ways so it doesn't contact the shoulder, the shoulder typically gets moved forward a few thousandths. In the reloading industry, this is called partial neck sizing. It's usually enough to cause the bolt to bind when that case is chambered 'cause the case headspace is now a bit longer than chamber headspace. And that's a detriment to accuracy.

That aside, if one does get the best accuracy partial neck sizing bottleneck cases with a full length sizing die, it's my opinion that they might re-evaluate their traditional full length sizing processes where the fired case shoulder's set back a bit. They might also want to shoot a lot more shots per test group as most any case sizing and/or prep techinique will sometimes shoot a "wallet group" of 3 shots that its producer "knows" that's the best recipie to use for that bullet.

 

[Bullet bumper]

When folks back a bottleneck full length sizing die up a ways so it doesn't contact the shoulder, the shoulder typically gets moved forward a few thousandths. In the reloading industry, this is called partial neck sizing. It's usually enough to cause the bolt to bind when that case is chambered 'cause the case headspace is now a bit longer than chamber headspace.

+ 1 on that . I have found the same thing. On some types of cases and with soft brass at the shoulder it don't work that good.
The bset thing to do with an old type Full length sizing die with an expander button . Cut the top right off and drill out the neck to turn it into a body die . then do your neck sizing with a Lee Collet or a seperate neck die .
This way you have way more control over the two seperate jobs.
This is what I did to all my FL dies back as far as 1969 ! I like to think I invented the body die but others would have got the same ideas some place I guess .
Bulk reloaders for autos can get good service from dies that size all in one pass but bolt actions go better with seperate sizing dies I find anyway .

 

[Mikecr]

A true FL sizing die doesn't make a good neck die IMO. This, because there is nothing good in FL sizing of necks, nor partial sizing of lower case bodies.

I'm glad bullet bumper invented Redding body dies, and Wilson neck dies!
Robinhood493, you can have both in a custom die made by JLC Precision -and cheap. Send him a few fireformed cases & he'll set you up with a bushing bump die for YOUR chamber.

These are often referred to as 'Full-Length Bushing Dies', but that isn't what they are at all.
Such a die does exist but includes the shoulder in it's bushing, which would degrade it from that of a standard FL die..

Google JLC Precision die

 

[Bullet bumper]

A true FL sizing die doesn't make a good neck die IMO. This, because there is nothing good in FL sizing of necks, nor partial sizing of lower case bodies.

I'm glad bullet bumper invented Redding body dies, and Wilson neck dies!
Robinhood493, you can have both in a custom die made by JLC Precision -and cheap. Send him a few fireformed cases & he'll set you up with a bushing bump die for YOUR chamber.

These are often referred to as 'Full-Length Bushing Dies', but that isn't what they are at all.
Such a die does exist but includes the shoulder in it's bushing, which would degrade it from that of a standard FL die..

Google JLC Precision die

Hang on ! read the date Redding did not make any " body dies " in 1969 No commercial company did at that time . I came up with the idea way before Redding started to make body dies even though they made them in secret for many years . If you knew you could order one but they never advertised it . The reason they made them in secret was because they stole the idea. I do recognise that others may have come up with the same idea .
Why is it so hard for people to think that some private person may actually invent something . I still have my very first body die conversion from an old Lyman die from 1969 , I keep it just for sentimental reasons. Now I would not bother to make one as they are very cheap to buy and better sized than conversion and you can get a small base die also. .

Never said anything about Wilson Neck dies you are imagining things.

 

[Bart B]

Hang on ! read the date Redding did not make any " body dies " in 1969 No commercial company did at that time . I came up with the idea way before Redding started to make body dies even though they made them in secret for many years.

There were several folks using body dies before 1969. These were true body dies as they only sized the case body; nothing touched the shoulder nor neck. They were used on belted cases used in long range prone matches such as Fred Huntington's .30-.338 Win. Mag. wildcat he came out with in 1958. (Therefore, I think Redding as well as RCBS, Lyman, C&H and other die makers were aware body dies before 1969. I used one myself for the first time in 1968 on .264 Win. Mag. cases.) A regular full length sizing die had its top cut off at the shoulder then squared off. Its bottom cut off just above the belt clearance section where the body diameter there was about .5120" or .001" smaller than new case diameter immediately in front of the belt.

After using a standard full length sizing die (with its neck lapped out to a couple thousandths less than a loaded round's neck diameter; no expander ball used) to get the neck and body down to the right diameters as well as setting the fired case shoulder back a couple thousandths, the body die was used. That body die was set in the press so its bottom would just barely touch the belt when the press ram was al the way up. All this was done so that ridge that usually happens on new cases right in front of the belt on new cases gets sized back down to virtual new case diameters all the way to the belt. Otherwise, that ridge/step interferes with the back end of the case positioning itself the same way for every shot.

Top classified shooters winning matches and setting records had learned that new belted cases give better accuracy than fired ones resized by neck only (worst accuracy of all) or standard full length sizing dies (fair, but not as accurate as when a body die was also used. The difference was that little ridge. Once it was removed with that body die after standard full length sizing, those resized cases shot as accurate as new ones.

The 7mm Rem. Mag. rifle used to set a new 1000-yard record in 1970 (which caused Remington's sales of rifles so chambered to jump considerably) was fed previously fired cases so sized. A good friend did it with the rifle and ammo he borrowed from another mutual friend who had conducted the most intensive and complete study on fired case sizing techniques known to man. He tried neck only, neck and shoulder bumping, all sorts of partial neck sizing as well as full length sizing in addition to new cases. Using the best commercial bullets available for accuracy, they were fired from free-recoil rail guns whose match-grade barrels were chambered with minimum SAAMI spec reamers (no tight necks at all). Those bullets were also fired in factory sporting and military rifles with all sorts of chamber and bore dimensions. He didn't prep any cases (except for trimming back to length when they got too long) nor weigh powder charges. For rimless bottleneck cases, standard full length sizing dies were used but their necks were resized so expander balls (which bend case necks) need not be used. Some folks got up to about two dozed reloads per belted case and several dozed per rimless bottleneck case with such dies.

A high power rifle competitor ranked at the top having won his share of matches and set a few records along the way, he was well qualified to tell what fired case sizing tools and processes worked best for accuracy. Others with his same shooting skills also learned his tool types and use methods did indeed give the best accuracy. He was Martin Hull, Sierra Bullets' first ballistic technician who loaded and test fired virtually of Sierra's bullets for accuracy checks for so many years. Sierra still used the same type of dies these days; Redding Full Bushing Dies for cases they're made for or Redding standard full length dies for the others. The die necks are sized a little below loaded round neck diameters.

If one understands why fired cases so sized in full length dies center perfectly up front in the chamber when fired, they might understand why they've been popular with top classified high power rifle competitors since the 1950's and why the benchresters are moving in that direction these days. And there's a collet die made today that does the same thing better than those old body dies we made ourselves; www.larrywillis.com.

 

[Gene]

I have no problem using a FL die to partial neck size. Just set the die to full length size. Go to Sinclair's and buy a Skip Otto die shim set. Put a shim under the die while it is still set to full size, and it will then not touch the shoulder. Remove the shim when you want to FL the brass.

PS - Throw away that sizing button.

 

[Robinhood493]

I have no problem using a FL die to partial neck size. Just set the die to full length size. Go to Sinclair's and buy a Skip Otto die shim set. Put a shim under the die while it is still set to full size, and it will then not touch the shoulder. Remove the shim when you want to FL the brass.

PS - Throw away that sizing button.

OK, Looks like I will be buying a new bushing die instead of messing with the ones I have. I've been reading alot of people taking the sizing button off. Can someone explain the reasoning behind this?

 

[Bart B]

I've been reading alot of people taking the sizing button off. Can someone explain the reasoning behind this?

Most folks remove the sizing button 'cause they know it too often bends case necks as it comes back up through the sized down case neck. But that means the fired case neck will be sized down several thousandths too much.

Seating bullets in that small of a case neck will typically scrape off a lot of jacket material. And it won't be exactly the same amount all the way around. So the otherwise well balanced bullet now is very much unbalanced. Do you want to shoot unbalanced bullets that jump off the bore axis as they leave the muzzle? And the peak pressure will be much higher for a given load with a bullet held extra tight by the case mouth. To say nothing of the often-bent case necks from doing this.

If the full length sizing die's neck is lapped out to a couple thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter, then it's the same thing as a full bushing die with its bushing diameter the same diameter as a lapped out standard die's neck. For example, if the neck diameter on a loaded round is .308", the sizing die's neck diameter (either the bushing or die neck) should be .306". That'll let the case neck spring back about .001" for enough neck tension to hold the bullet securely. For heavy recoiling rifles and heavy bullets for a given caliber, sometimes that die neck diameter needs to be .003" smaller.

One other thing, Redding makes shell holders that come in a set with .002" height differences. When a full length sizing die's locked in the press such that fired case shoulders are set back .002", the bottom of the die often is a couple thousandths above the shell holder. Using a shell holder of the correct height to stop against will keep your full length sized case headspace (head to shoulder length) to more consistant dimensions. It more or less eliminates the spread in this dimension caused by uneven amounts of case lube on the case that's often happens when spraying or rolling on case lube. Just use the shell holder that lets your fired case shoulder get set back no more than .003".

 

[Joe King]

When you pull the case neck back over the expander ball it pulls on the neck and can cause concentricity issues, with the expander ball removed there's no chance of that happening.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

When you pull the case neck back over the expander ball it pulls on the neck and can cause concentricity issues, with the expander ball removed there's no chance of that happening.

If you lube your necks that will be basically non-existant. I use a bit of case lube brushed into my necks on standard fl dies in all my rifles. I've been doing it for years as I got ****ed dang near standing on the handle a few times with '06 brass. Started lubing necks and the problems went away. The necks grew a bit less too. If you don't lube your necks they can be bent or pulled harder on one side, but I've had good results lubed.
If you pull your expander ball, you will likely have undersize case necks. Anything more than .002" or so undersize wil either shave your bullets and kick off their center of balance or seat out of center and cause run-out issues.