More dissappointment in some "great manufacturers".

[SaskShooter]

Yesterday a friend of mine, new to shooting, brought out his brand new Remington 700 Sendero heavy barrel in .220 Swift. He lives in a nearby city, and he came out to my farm to zero in (I have a permanent shooting range in my back yard). His gun was just back from the smith for some basic work- scope mounting, trigger tuning, bore sighting- he had the option of either a Zeiss Conquest (zoom unknown) or a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10X50 with the Wide Duplex reticle. He chose the $700 Leupold over the $1,300 Zeiss.

His sole intention for this gun was to knock off coyotes out to 500 yards. In theory, a heavy barrelled .220 Swift with a 10X scope should be fine, right? Not this time.

After getting on paper at 100 yards, we had mediocre results from the Remington Accutips (around 1-3/4") so we switched over to the Hornady 55 grain VMax factory fodder. That shot better for him at about 1-1/2", so I asked if he'd mind if I fired a group. He handed me the gun with five rounds- I shredded the one inch bullseye.

So the gun shoots well enough on paper, in the hands of a decent marksman it's a 1 MOA gun, but I'm SURE I could have shot .75 or less if it weren't for that damned scope! The scope cost $200+ more than both of my Vortex scopes, but it wasn't nearly as clear, the adjustments were sticky and barely tactile, even with that 50mm lens, my other scopes still have a brighter image, and lastly................... WHO ON EARTH HAD THE STUPID IDEA OF THAT WIDE DUPLEX RETICLE? At 100 yards the center portion measures about 1-1/4" wide on 10X. We had to use 4" bulls on the target so we could actually place the crosshair on them.

And the rifle? Well, it CAN shoot well as the gunsmith who did load development for it SAID he shot groups as small as .11" at 100 yards in testing, but what still irked me about the gun was this
Heavy barrel, fancy graphite stock, stainless steel, it costs over $1,000, it's a precision weapon- yet the feed ramp feels like sandpaper and the crown on the barrel was VISIBLY CROOKED! I checked and double-checked and the entire front face of that barrel is canted down and to the right slightly.

The rifle still shoots, but these are things that just shouldn't be wrong on a gun you pay over $1K for.

Now the worst part is that this guy is a REALLY new shooter, but he's in his 60's and just won't take any advice from a whippersnapper like me. He doesn't understand the concept of rifle accuracy or why his scope will not work to kill coyotes consistently at 500 yards. The best groups he managed were around 1-1/2 MOA, but he believes that someday he'll be able to shoot 3/8" groups at 500 yards with this rifle. He figures he just needs to practice.........





Okay I'm sorry for venting here. Better than anywhere else I though.

 

[MTBULLET]

uh, the wide duplex is not designed for "varmint' type shooting.

 

[Dr. Vette]

And, two types of factory amo doesn't constitute much of an accuracy test.

Try 8-10 different types and then see what shoots well. Yes, I've had to do that before to get 1 or 2 satisfactory factory loads.

 

[SaskShooter]

I know the Wide Duplex isn't for varmints, but unfortunately the new guy doesn't understand that. He doesn't get the idea of "You can't hit what you can't see".

We tried more types of factory ammo, this time though we were just testing the Remington, Hornady and Winchester. The Winchester stuff didn't shoot well enough to even mention.

 

[TOM H]

Yesterday a friend of mine, new to shooting, brought out his brand new Remington 700 Sendero heavy barrel in .220 Swift. He lives in a nearby city, and he came out to my farm to zero in (I have a permanent shooting range in my back yard). His gun was just back from the smith for some basic work- scope mounting, trigger tuning, bore sighting- he had the option of either a Zeiss Conquest (zoom unknown) or a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10X50 with the Wide Duplex reticle. He chose the $700 Leupold over the $1,300 Zeiss.

His sole intention for this gun was to knock off coyotes out to 500 yards. In theory, a heavy barrelled .220 Swift with a 10X scope should be fine, right? Not this time.

After getting on paper at 100 yards, we had mediocre results from the Remington Accutips (around 1-3/4") so we switched over to the Hornady 55 grain VMax factory fodder. That shot better for him at about 1-1/2", so I asked if he'd mind if I fired a group. He handed me the gun with five rounds- I shredded the one inch bullseye.

So the gun shoots well enough on paper, in the hands of a decent marksman it's a 1 MOA gun, but I'm SURE I could have shot .75 or less if it weren't for that damned scope! The scope cost $200+ more than both of my Vortex scopes, but it wasn't nearly as clear, the adjustments were sticky and barely tactile, even with that 50mm lens, my other scopes still have a brighter image, and lastly................... WHO ON EARTH HAD THE STUPID IDEA OF THAT WIDE DUPLEX RETICLE? At 100 yards the center portion measures about 1-1/4" wide on 10X. We had to use 4" bulls on the target so we could actually place the crosshair on them.

And the rifle? Well, it CAN shoot well as the gunsmith who did load development for it SAID he shot groups as small as .11" at 100 yards in testing, but what still irked me about the gun was this
Heavy barrel, fancy graphite stock, stainless steel, it costs over $1,000, it's a precision weapon- yet the feed ramp feels like sandpaper and the crown on the barrel was VISIBLY CROOKED! I checked and double-checked and the entire front face of that barrel is canted down and to the right slightly.

The rifle still shoots, but these are things that just shouldn't be wrong on a gun you pay over $1K for.

Now the worst part is that this guy is a REALLY new shooter, but he's in his 60's and just won't take any advice from a whippersnapper like me. He doesn't understand the concept of rifle accuracy or why his scope will not work to kill coyotes consistently at 500 yards. The best groups he managed were around 1-1/2 MOA, but he believes that someday he'll be able to shoot 3/8" groups at 500 yards with this rifle. He figures he just needs to practice.........





Okay I'm sorry for venting here. Better than anywhere else I though.

I'm having hard time understanding if he paid to have load development done and groups in the .1's why isn't he shooting reloads and didn't the gunsmith talk to him about the difference in factory vs reloads as to accuracy. what scope did the gunsmith use?

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

And, two types of factory amo doesn't constitute much of an accuracy test.

Try 8-10 different types and then see what shoots well. Yes, I've had to do that before to get 1 or 2 satisfactory factory loads.

agreed and what does 100 yards tell us? not much at all

 

[Sully2]

ANY time a "newbie"..regardless of age...wont take advice and instruction from someone much more knowledgeable about "said subject" prior and after purchase....then they get what they got!

If he wont listen...let him shoot 4" groups at 200 yards the rest of his life.

 

[Mike 338]

I've got the same rifle, more or less. A fluted Varmint. I got it about 15 years ago. It didn't shoot factory ammo very well and was kind of picky about reloads but it likes 52 grain Sierra flat base bullets and IMR 4064 powder. It won't shoot boat tails or bullets that are very heavy or light. It needed, and got, a trigger job. I never considered it a 500 yard gun due to the wind pushing my shots around but I've busted many coyotes with it.

Your friend will greatly benefit from the effort of reloading. I would even guess he will never be satisfied until he does. As mentioned earlier, he should probably rethink his heavy reticle scope decision. Since he won't take any advice, you may offer to mount one of your Vortex scopes on it and let him shoot it. Changing scopes will then become his idea. He can also send his scope to Leopold and get the reticle changed to a fine reticle if he doesn't want to buy a new scope.

I'm not sure what to think about the gunsmith shooting that rifle in the 1's but duplicating those groups seems quite optimistic.

 

[Jerry M]

I had a 'older model' Remington 700 sporter in 7mm Rem mag that would shoot 150 factory Remington shells into a 8 inch circle. It turns out that it also shoots 175 gr reloads into 3/4 of an inch. I am serious, while this is an extreme case I sure there are others that have experienced the same.

 

[SaskShooter]

I'm having hard time understanding if he paid to have load development done and groups in the .1's why isn't he shooting reloads and didn't the gunsmith talk to him about the difference in factory vs reloads as to accuracy. what scope did the gunsmith use?

He still hasn't purchased all his reloading equipment yet, otherwise he'd be shooting the load recipe the gunsmith gave him, although it won't help much with his shooting skills.

The smith used the Zeiss scope for load testing. I believe it was a Conquest 6.5-20X44.

I already showed him my Vortex scopes, and offered to mount one and let him try it, even buy it off me but he refused. He just. doesn't. get. it.

I wish I could stop hunting/shooting with this guy but this is one of those awkward friend-of-the-family situations where I really can't escape.

 

[SaskShooter]

Nonetheless, my main point is that you should NEVER be able to see that the crown/muzzle of a barrel isn't true. I can accept that all manufacturers have screwups, but if it's that obvious it should not have left the factory.

If this was a cheap Stevens, Mossberg, H&R, or something that cost 300 bucks I'd be OK if the crown wasn't totally square, but on a higher-end Remington varmint rifle that just isn't acceptable.

 

[Mike 338]

I wish I could stop hunting/shooting with this guy but this is one of those awkward friend-of-the-family situations where I really can't escape.

Oh well... those guys need a friend too.

 

[denny2]

After he watches you shoot great groups with your guns, maybe he will see the problem with his gun . Then he will want to improve and take your advise.

 

[Sully2]

He still hasn't purchased all his reloading equipment yet, otherwise he'd be shooting the load recipe the gunsmith gave him, although it won't help much with his shooting skills.

The smith used the Zeiss scope for load testing. I believe it was a Conquest 6.5-20X44.

Same scope I have on both of my longest range rifles. 4-14 Conquest on my "closer in" rifles