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Meloniting/Nitriding help

winmagman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2003
Messages
1,379
Location
Southern Wisconsin
Thought I'd try the gunsmiths for some help.

I just received a new build and I'd like to have the barrel treated, preferably by MMI or H&M. Unfortunately I can't find any contact info or price structure at either website.

So if any one can point me to a website, link, phone #, contact person, or any other option to get this done I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance

Chris
 
Google Joel Kendricks, he used to handle alot of MMI Trutec business for them. I hear he promotes some other company now.
 
MMI is now known as ParkerTruTech. Last I knew, they didn't except barrels from individuals, only from "approved" gunsmiths/barrel makers, and they charge more than is reasonable, IMO. H&M has a 'batch' charge. Costs the same to do one or six barrels. Batch charge is in the neighborhood of $225-$250 plus shipping both ways. You might check with Controlled Thermal Technologies (CTT) in Phoenix, AZ. Requires removing the barrel from the action and removal of any coating on the barrel (CerraCoat, GunKote, etc). Bead blasted barrels come back with a matte finish, polished barrels are 'brighter'. Needs to be 'squeeky clean' on the inside before shipping. Clean well before installing treated barrel on your action. After treatment, any machining (re-crowning, etc.) will only be accomplished with carbide tooling. So, make sure all is as you want it before shipping.
 
MMI is now known as ParkerTruTech. Last I knew, they didn't except barrels from individuals, only from "approved" gunsmiths/barrel makers, and they charge more than is reasonable, IMO. H&M has a 'batch' charge. Costs the same to do one or six barrels. Batch charge is in the neighborhood of $225-$250 plus shipping both ways. You might check with Controlled Thermal Technologies (CTT) in Phoenix, AZ. Requires removing the barrel from the action and removal of any coating on the barrel (CerraCoat, GunKote, etc). Bead blasted barrels come back with a matte finish, polished barrels are 'brighter'. Needs to be 'squeeky clean' on the inside before shipping. Clean well before installing treated barrel on your action. After treatment, any machining (re-crowning, etc.) will only be accomplished with carbide tooling. So, make sure all is as you want it before shipping.


Ted and Winmagman, Just a question?

Is there any Proof that barrel coatings can improve accuracy? I have some experience with chrome
lined barrels and they do seem to improve barrel life, but I have never seen one that is as, or more accurate than a good custom un coated barrel.

I have also dealt with QPQ coatings and they are so hard that even the carbide tools don't work very good on them.

It would be nice to build a very accurate rifle (Tested) and then coat the bore and test it again to see what true effect it has on accuracy.

I have a different priority than some, and accuracy is #1 with me so I have been hesitant to risk accuracy loss to gain barrel life, and the ability to re do chambers and throats to original accuracy so I am interested in any experience in this matter.

I would like to hear experiences and performance from people that have had this done.

Not trying to Hijack this thread or question the use of coatings, just wanting to learn something.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM
 
JE, I was originally introduced to Melonite/Blk. Nitride treatment by a BR shooter that I was doing barrel work for. If it (melonite/blk. nitride) effected accuracy, BR shooters would reject it, entirely, many have their barrels treated. I have personal experience with having barrels treated. My 6.5 X 284 has 625rds down the Bartlien tube,,,,,, my 6mmRem A.I. has 510rds. Neither show any signs of wear,,,, not even alittle bit. I'd built a 6mmXC a couple of yrs. back. I had 52 rds 'down the tube' for break-in'. It was proving to be quite a shooter so I decided to have it treated. The throat was showing pretty good wear for only having 52rds across it, so I set it back two turns and re-set the headspace, fired two rds. to examine/measure the brass, cleaned it , and sent it off in a "batch' with 4 others. It was just as accurate as before. I had the same experience/results with a 6mm X 45mm. It had more rds than the 6XC down it. I set it back to fresh, fired 2 rds, claned it and shipped it. Just as accurate as before treatment. I know you have a bore scope. Wear starts from the very first rd. Some wear quicker than others. Some wear much quicker than you'd expect. The 6 X 45 was showing wear much quicker than I'd expect from that rd. I don't get to fire as many rds. from my own rifles as I used to. I always seem to be firing/working on someone elses. So, I've yet to fire one of my own, that's been treated, to "worn out". But, many of my customers fire many rds. , and the reports I get from them are nothing but positive. I bore scope many of them to see how much wear there is in the throat, which, as you know, is where the "wear" begins. I think some of the negitive that arises on the web comes from those who fail to completely clean the inside of the barrel before and/or after treatment. There's alot or residue left inside that has to be removed. The inside needs to be absolutely clean before sending for treatment There's no free lunch. I've spent an hour to an hour and a half cleaning a single barrel before re-installing it after treatment. I need to point out, also, that Melonite/Blk. Nitride is not a 'coating'. It is more akin to a heat treating process as it draws carbon toward the surface and infuses nitrogen into the surface of the material creating a "hard" layer, but leaving the toughness of the parent material. I've put a treated barrel under the Rockwell Tester at work, and it does increase the surface hardness (the one I checked showed 63C. took a lot of doing and a jack stand from the welding dept. to support the muzzle end for the shank to be under the anvil properly). The Melonite/Blk. Nitride process has been around for many yrs. and used on many different critically dimentioned parts, it's just been within the past 5-6 yrs. that its been used on rifle barrels. I my opinion, after observing 20 or so barrels, with none of them showing negative results, the process is well worth it. Understand, barrel makers won't endorse it as you are altering their material in a way that they have no control over. The 'blue' color, that the barrels come back with, is just a by product of the process. It can be polished off, if desired (with a barrel spinner and belt sander)
 
QPQ (quench-polish-quench) IS the Melonite/Blk. Nitride process. No "coating" or teatment I know of can make a bad shooting barrel a 'good' shooting barrel. I'd strongly recommend that any barrel being shipped for treatment be bore scoped in its entirety as any copper/bullet jacket material that is left in the bore will, most likely, be detrimental to accuracy after treatment. "All you can really tell, without a bore scope, is that hole goes all the way through!"
 
Ted and Winmagman, Just a question?

Is there any Proof that barrel coatings can improve accuracy? I have some experience with chrome
lined barrels and they do seem to improve barrel life, but I have never seen one that is as, or more accurate than a good custom un coated barrel.

I have also dealt with QPQ coatings and they are so hard that even the carbide tools don't work very good on them.

It would be nice to build a very accurate rifle (Tested) and then coat the bore and test it again to see what true effect it has on accuracy.

I have a different priority than some, and accuracy is #1 with me so I have been hesitant to risk accuracy loss to gain barrel life, and the ability to re do chambers and throats to original accuracy so I am interested in any experience in this matter.

I would like to hear experiences and performance from people that have had this done.

Not trying to Hijack this thread or question the use of coatings, just wanting to learn something.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM

J E

The barrel I'm looking to do is a Broughton chambered in 26 Nosler. I spoke with Tim North last week to get his thoughts on Meloniting one of his barrels. He had no problem with it and he was very helpful with how to break in and clean a barrel before shipping it off.

The following is based on reading about everything I can find on this topic in an effort to make a well informed decision.

From what I can find it seems that there is no change in accuracy after the treatment, if it shoots in the .1s or 10 moa before it will after, UNLESS things go bad and that can happen. Don't really know why things go bad but there are reports out there of barrels not responding well to being treated.

The reports on wear have all been positive, but no one can say if they get 30% more barrel life of 80% more, just that they are getting better barrel life/less barrel wear.

As far as rechambering or recrowning goes, there are people that say the can do work on treated barrels with carbide tooling. I don't personally know one way or the other, but bet it would not be a treat to do.

I'm leaning strongly towards having mine done. I do need to see good accuracy potential during break in first, which might be tough job since I'd like to keep the round count at 25 or less before treatment. Meloniting a barrel with to much throat wear/firecracking is said to have very negative effects.

Chris
 
Thanks Ted and Chris.

That's the kind of information I was hoping for.
I will now consider trying it on one of my rifles just to see for my self.

As for machining the QPQ coatings, On some of my brakes when Tuning the the carbide mills cry and scream while cutting, so I now do all of the machining before the QPQ coating is done. (PS: a file will not touch the QPQ treated material).

Thanks guys

J E CUSTOM
 
J E

The barrel I'm looking to do is a Broughton chambered in 26 Nosler. I spoke with Tim North last week to get his thoughts on Meloniting one of his barrels. He had no problem with it and he was very helpful with how to break in and clean a barrel before shipping it off.

The following is based on reading about everything I can find on this topic in an effort to make a well informed decision.

From what I can find it seems that there is no change in accuracy after the treatment, if it shoots in the .1s or 10 moa before it will after, UNLESS things go bad and that can happen. Don't really know why things go bad but there are reports out there of barrels not responding well to being treated.

The reports on wear have all been positive, but no one can say if they get 30% more barrel life of 80% more, just that they are getting better barrel life/less barrel wear.

As far as rechambering or recrowning goes, there are people that say the can do work on treated barrels with carbide tooling. I don't personally know one way or the other, but bet it would not be a treat to do.

I'm leaning strongly towards having mine done. I do need to see good accuracy potential during break in first, which might be tough job since I'd like to keep the round count at 25 or less before treatment. Meloniting a barrel with to much throat wear/firecracking is said to have very negative effects.

Chris

I'd account those barrels that went 'south' to; #1 there was some fire cracking in the barrel before it was treated #2 the barrel wasn't 'squeaky clean' before it was treated, there was jacket material left inside #3 all the residue from treating wasn't removed before firing it. Those three reasons are why I recommend bore scoping I've recrowned a couple with a c6 carbide insert on a 1/2" carbide boring bar without trouble. On one, I didn't get the recess deep enough for the Rem. bolt nose, and again, it cut easily with the c6 insert in the carbide boring bar. It'd take a carbide reamer to do any rechambering or headspacing. The 'hard' layer is only .0005 to .001" thick, so after you're through that, it'll cut with HS tooling. Trouble is, finding a place where you could remove the 'hard' layer and then actually use HS!
 
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