Lazzeroni Warbird

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Boman, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Hey everyone Ive searched the internet looking for warbird loads and cant find much. I have the data from Lazzeronis website but im looking for petloads and loads that just seem to work. My rifle is the Sako trgs/m995 withthe 26" barrel, 1-12 twist. As of now im looking at using Bergers, Barnes and Cutting edge bullets but I'll try any bullet. Thanks for your help
  2. lazwarbird

    lazwarbird Well-Known Member

    Aug 15, 2010
    Let me get home from work and I can forward you a bunch of my loads for the ones I have worked with
  3. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Thank you, much appreciated
  4. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Anyone else?
  5. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2004
    below is a post I found dating back to '04 when I was messing with the ol' Warbird... It is a helluva cartridge if ya like fast 30 cals, got into some trouble on other forums , seems some guys had a hard time believing a Warbird was capable of such fine accuracy and velocity... the case for the Warbird is very well designed and ya can't "improve" it with any substantial gains, better left alone as it is very conducive too excellent accuracy... the only shortcoming this cartridge has in my view is highly expensive brass that did not last more than two firing when pushed to Lazz posted velocities, if you keep the horsepower down to 300 RUM velocities your brass should last 6-7 firings or a few more... BUT that was on the old batch of brass, I hear that Hornady is making the new stuff and it's supposed to be a lot better, I never had the chance to use any of it.... I will look through all my crap and see If I can locate some data for ya .

    #20 07-19-2004, 06:16 PM
    Bronze Member Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Alaska
    Posts: 93

    Re: Best factory rifle accuracy under $1400US


    I've no experience with the Savage rifles, can't comment on them but do hear a lot of good reports on accuracy from other shooters.

    My best shooting factory rifle to date is a Sako TRGS, (out of box, zero mods.) Using 180 grn. 30 Cal. Accubonds I finally achieved that elusive "one holer" at 100 yards, with most groups under 1/2 ".
    Considering the fact I'm sending them downrange @ 3520 fps with the 7.82 Warbird that has nearly 1000 rnds. through it, that is stellar performance,it's a tough combination to beat.

    Rifle cost $850.00 U.S. several years ago.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  6. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2004
    here's a post of mine from the 24 campfire forums from 2004
    might have some info of value, you decide !

    Loc: Alaska
    I've been working up loads with both the 180 and 200 grn. 30 cal. Accubonds in recent months, the accuracy of these bullets have generated a lot of respect from me. The best groups I've ever accomplished was with the 180's, with the 200's right behind.

    One thing I did notice when the seating die was set for the 180's to be just of the rifling, the 200's seat to the exact same OAL based on the ogive of the bullet without readjusting the die, kinda neat that way, I can load both without having to fiddle with the die.

    As for using the same seating depth and powder charge from data used for the BTips, I'd approach that with caution, the BTips use a softer lead alloy and a thinner jacket than the Accubonds, also the Accu's are bonded and bullet engraving might be a little tougher and can raise pressures in some rifles. My experience with Partitions vs Swift A-Frames in several calibers has shown that the Swift reached high pressures sooner than the Partition. I figured that the bonded and tougher Swift was harder on the rifling and raised pressures as opposed to the softer lead Partition.
    Some say that the Swifts have a softer jacket and are "stickier" in the bore than the Partitions.

    I'm sure this is old news,but I'll repeat it anyway,
    This is just a comparison to show that It's always a good Idea to back off a little to be on the safe side. What works in other rifles could change dramatically in others.

    Cartridge OAL 3.691"
    Ogive OAL 3.047"
    I'm using 106 grns of RL 25 for the 180 grn. Accubonds for a velocity of 3520 fps.
    For the 200 Grn Accubonds I'm stuffing the cases with 102 grns. of rl 25 for 3300 fps. Did load up to a 10 shot ave. of 3385 fps but ran into slightly flattened primers and groups started to suck too opening to a lousy 1 inch from the normal 1/2 " with 3300 fps.

    in the pics below ..the 180 gr coated Accubonds on left and 200 gr coated Accubonds on right

    You will not be able to use this load data unless you coat your bullets with Tungsten Disulfide, which is what I do to all my bullets.. Follow John Lazzeroni's load data from his web page for uncoated bullets.


    Attached Files:

  7. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Swamplord, thank you for all the info. Sounds like you had great accuracy with the accubonds. Do you think I could use the load data by moly coating bullets or does it have to be tungsten?
  8. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2004

    I have used moly in the past but these loads were developed with Tungsten Disulfide which is a vastly superior product.. I would definately start low and work up with moly as it behaves differently than tungsten..

    In my experience it has dramatically improved accuracy and barrel life in my rifles. the Warbird's throat life expectancy was placed at 800 rnds, I have exceeded that by 500 rnds with no loss in accuracy, I use a bore prep made with the same tungsten powder to coat the bore with a few passes then a dry mop to remove the excess material, the hot gasses are deflected by the tungsten coating and pass through the bore with less impact on the throat and rifling . I will add info on the stuff in my next post !

    180 Gr Swift A-Frame coated with tungsten disulfide
    105 gr. Alliants Reloder 25
    3474 FPS 20 ft from the muzzle
    3.584" Cartridge OAL
    3.015" Ogive OAL

    load tailored specifically for my rifle in that barrel... your results may vary
    also powder used came from 4 5lb jugs of same lot "April 21,2001 S2 LOT 25029"
    powder may have a different burn rate from newly manufactured lots as was seen with Hodgdons H-1000.... all data was derived by live fire with temperatures ranging from 55-65 degree Fahrenheit , my hunting conditions were in same temps maybe a bit lower...
    RL 25 is known to be temperature sensitive, in high temp areas use extreme caution with max loads.... several more reasons to start low and work up....

    my go to load that I used for all my hunting in Alaska (in Brown Bear country) with the Warbird, I worked up a load with uncoated 180 gr Swift A-Frame bullets during barrel break in using RL-25 (load data from Lazz website) accuracy was around 1" at 100 yards...

    When I started using tungsten coated bullets velocity dropped off indicating lower pressure, I gradually worked up to 3600 fps and came across high pressure signs and accuracy fell off, backing down to my best accuracy load , 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards, all shots were fired with bbl cooling intervals of at least 10 mins. without disturbing/ moving the rifle from my shooting bags, ( line of sight/ bullet path remained the same) which I found is crucial for shooting for groups and determining your loads accuracy, I often see guys at the range pulling their guns off to shoot with another rifle or a buddy wants to shoot his rifle, I go alone for accurate load development.

    always shoot through a chronograph when developing top end loads, your velocity is usually the first indication of high pressure,
    With the Sako TRGS M995 and it's 26" barrel, anytime a 180 gr uncoated bullet is at 3300 fps or more, start watching for signs of pressure on your fired brass. some bullets will create high pressures with a 1/2 grain increment of powder without any warning with the previous lower charge...

    another critical step for accuracy----my brass prep involved sorting 200 pcs of brass by weight after the primer pockets were uniformed, flash hole deburred, full length sized in a 7.82 Warbird Redding FL die then trimmed all pcs of brass to same length.... basically follow the bench rest shooters techniques of preparing brass for a competitive shoot.... it does work ! the goal here is uniformity in ammunition, identical loads will produce better accuracy .

    My brother has an identical rifle bought at the same time, he had a muzzle brake installed by Wild West Guns from Anchorage which shortened his bbl by about an inch but his rifle reached higher pressures with lower charges using the same lot of bullets and powder..
    Accuracy of 1/2" at 100 yards was found with 1 gr less powder and similar velocity
    104.0 gr RL 25
    3.581" Cartridge OAL
    3.012" Ogive OAL

    I apologize for such a long winded post, just wanted to share with you my results with my loading methods for the Warbird....

    let me know how it works out, really curious about the brass made by Hornady ! I believe the stuff I have was made by Mast...
  9. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2004
    here's the info as promised, read in its entirety and make your own judgement, I have been using it since 2000 for all my bullets including lead and hardcast revolver loads, absolutely minimal leading in higher velocity loads for lead bullets, the stuff is fantastic...........

    Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is dry/solid lubricant powder and is one of the most lubricious substance in world. WS2 offers excellant dry lubricity (COF: 0.03) unmatched to any other substance, including Graphite or Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2).

    Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from -450 deg F (-270º C) to 1200 deg F (650º C) in normal atmosphere and from -305 deg F (-188º C) to 2400º F (1316º C) in Vacuum. Load bearing ability of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.

    Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) can also be used instaed of Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2). See comparison of WS2 / MoS2

    Since the powder offers one of the lowest Coefficient of Friction (Dynamic @ 0.03 & Static @ 0.07), the applications are unlimited and could be tried with every conceivable idea. .

    Two established ways the WS2 powder can be used are:

    1) Mixing the WS2 powder with wet lubricants (such as oil, grease & other synthetic lubricants):
    The powder can be mixed 1wt% to 15wt% (as required) with grease or oil. This will enhance lubricity of the mixture and also improves High Temperature and Extreme Pressure properties of mixture. During the use, WS2 in the mixture will get coated on mating/moving parts, which in turn reduces friction and improves lubricity and load bearing ability for much longer cycles.

    2) Coating the WS2 powder on a substrate requiring (dry) lubricity:
    The powder can be coated by spraying (at 120 psi) the substrate with dry (& cool) pneumatic air. It does not require any binders and spraying can be done at normal room temperature. Coated film will be 0.5 micron thick. In an alternative application method, the powder can also be mixed with Isopropyl alcohol and this paste could be buffed to the substrate. The coating applications are already established in many areas such as Automotive parts, Racing Car Engine and other parts, Aerospace parts, Bearings (Linear, Ball, Roller etc), Shafts, Marine parts, Cutting Tools, Blades, Slitters, Knives, Mold release, Precision Gears, Valve components, Pistons, Chains, Machinery components and many other areas.

    Engineering - General Information

    Bearing, gear & cutter life extended by 200 - 500%.

    Application Areas Include:-

    High Vacuum, High Temperature, Clean Room, Aerospace, Nuclear, Cryogenics, Machine Tools, Racing Engines, Cutting Tools, Die Casting

    Benefits and Capabilities of WS2
    Solves problems such as: friction, excessive wear, seizing, galling and fretting.
    Withstands loads upto 350,000psi at temperatures between -273oC to 650oC.
    Enhances the performance of all oils and greases.
    Overcomes or reduces mechanical lubrication problems improving performance and extending service life up to
    Eliminates and reduces costly maintenance problems that cause breakdowns and expensive downtime by stopping galling fretting and friction caused by dissimilar metals and their different hardnesses.
    Maintains the dimensional integrity of the substrate to within 0.5microns withno buildup.
    Is inert, inorganic, non-toxic, non-distortive, non-corrosive and resistant to most fuels and solvents.
    Resists carbon build-up from burnt deposits due to its extremely low coefficient of friction - less than half that of Moly and Teflon.
    Molecularly bonds to all materials and platings.

    Engineering - Material Properties

    Bearing, gear & cutter life extended by 200 - 500%.

    Composition - Modified Tungsten Disulphide (WS2 ) in laminar form.

    Coefficient of Friction - 0.030 dynamic, 0.070 static. ( WS2 on WS2 )

    Load Capacity - Same as substrate up to 350,000 psi

    Adhesion - Molecular bond, no cure time, applied at ambient temperature

    Temperature Range - Lubricates from -460oF to 1200oF ( -273oC to 650oC) in normal atmosphere, -350oF to 2400oF (-188oC to 1316oC) at 10-14 Torr

    Chemical Stability - Inert, non-toxic, corrosion resistance. Non magnetic

    Substrates - All ferrous and non ferrous metals, man-made solids /plastics

    As A Substrate - Accepts most paints, all platings, is compatible with solvents, fuels and oils

    LOX Compatibility - Insensitive to detonation by or in presence of oxygen

    Hardness - approximately 30 Rockwell C

    Thickness - 0.5 microns (0.000020 in)

    Military Specification - Processed to DOD - L - 85645

    Engineering - WS2 Applications

    Bearing, gear & cutter life extended by 200 - 500%.

    WS2 stops Pickup and Seizing on SS and Titanium

    WS2 is finding many applications where the stopping of pickup or seizing is important. These screws are for a medical application which requires servicing every 3 to 5 years. Finding the parts seized is not an option.

    Stainless steel parts within hydraulic systems and titanium parts for aircraft/space systems are typical application areas. Parts can be masked.


    WS2 Extends Life of sliding parts

    The cost of downtime due to wear of sliding parts can be dramatically reduced by specifying WS2 on sliding machine parts. The surface treatment is applied without heat and at 0.5micron thick does not affect engineering tolerances.

    Use WS2 where conventional lubricants cannot be tolerated, where oils/grease are allowed their performance is enhanced.


    WS2 Extends Gearbox Life

    These gears are from a high-precision gearbox where WS2 is applied to reduce friction and extend life. Coated gears run with lower friction, higher efficiency (7-9%), will run at higher speeds and with a significantly longer life.

    A Formula 3000 team owes its success to its WS2 coated gearbox. WS2 coated CV joints took part in the Paris - Dakar rally.

    WS2 and Gearboxes:-
    The coating is 0.5 micro thick so no engineering changes are necessary will not chip or peel. No heat is used in its application. WS2 is used with usual gearbox oil.
    The coating is porous and has an affinity for oils to ensure you always have a lubricant film (oil and WS2) between bearing faces.
    WS2 is very low friction so less heat is generated within the gearbox. We are told by our US licensers that the US Army Airforce is considering using WS2 to extend gearbox life in the event of small arms damage to helicopter lubrication systems.
    WS2 will extend the life of your gearbox. You may be able to run with less oil onboard.
    Gear shifting will require lower forces (Smaller Actuators?) and be smoother and faster in operation.
    WS2 delays the onset of micropitting.


    WS2 extends life of Ceramic Ball Races

    A specialist bearing company routinely supplies ceramic ball bearings to its customers.

    WS2 has been shown to extend the life of such bearings by enabling a "self healing" property of WS2 coated bearing to recover from shocks which would otherwise cause bearing failure.


    WS2 Extends HSS Cutting Tool Life by 2 to 5 times

    Tests have been done in the UK using WS2 as a coating on a HSS broaches. The life of the broach was extended by 5.5 times over an uncoated broach. A high speed tungsten carbide TicN coated milling cutter used for milling turbine blades was coated with WS2 - its life was extended by 2.0 times. A 2.8mm solid carbide drill coated with TiN cutting an aluminium alloy drilled 2200 holes - coating with WS2 extended the life to 7000 holes.

    These cutters used normal cutting fluids during operation (after coating). In the US WS2 is used to extend the life on a range of cutting tools from gear hobs, broaches, taps, milling cutters & centre drills.

    Benefits are:-
    Cutting edges remain sharp - we have coated razor blades for plastic film manufacture.
    The very low coefficient of friction reduces the heat generated in chip formation. Chips are well formed.
    WS2 prevents the build-up of material on the tooth face.
    WS2 is chemically inert so does not react with materials such as Titanium.
    WS2 withstands temperatures upto 650oC.
    Allows you to increase speeds and feeds and/or extends tool life.


    WS2 is a lubricant in High Vacuum

    A company with vacuum and compressor experience supply special purpose machinery for high vacuum research facilities in the UK and abroad. Previously they used MoS2 to lubricate bearings for use in such machines.

    This was a time consuming and costly process. The company have now switched to using WS2 coated bearings which provides a quicker and lower cost solution to lubrication at high vacuum.


    WS2 Lubricates at Cryogenic Temperatures

    An Aerospace laboratory was trying to get a stepping motor to work at 4oK. We were asked to coat the bearings after which it worked quite happily.


    WS2 Prevents Nut Seizure on Routing Head Spindles

    The manufacturer of routing heads reported an occasional seizing of the collet tightening nut on to the head spindle.

    After coating the threads with WS2 the problem did not re-occurr.


    Zinc Diecasting

    WS2 is also being used to stop galling and pickup in metal die casting. With coated ejector pins one company achieved 25,000 shots without any maintenance on the tool - a record for them!

    Engineering - Application Areas

    Bearing, gear & cutter life extended by 200 - 500%.

    Cutting Tools:
    End mills
    Roughing mills
    Jig reamers
    Centre Drills
    Drills and taps


    Linear bearings used in:
    Waterjet cutting
    Positioning devices


    Ball & Roller Bearings:
    Vacuum and Laser applications
    Nuclear applications
    Clean rooms
    Medical devices
    Food processing
    Wet or caustic applications with polymer grease


    Video Recorder:
    Hi speed duplication


    High speed spindles
    Cart wheels
    Aluminium rolling mills


    Ball Screws:
    Thompson type shafts
    THK, IKO & NSK linear actuation and positioning devices


    All engine parts,
    Main bearings,
    Big End, Little End Bearings
    Gear Boxes
    Wheel bearings, CV joints
    Transmissions, Rear end differentials


    Copying equipment, paper handling devices, printing presses
    High temperature open faced, non wet lube applications
    Clean rooms


    High load heavy equipment for ease of disassembly

    Electric Motors:
    Including Generators,
    High speed and fractional hp


    Motor drives
    Internal/External splines shafts
    ACME Threads
    Dental motors, Medical Motors, Turbine Engines
    Wear plates, Gibs

    Cold Forming:
    Canning machinery. Can be coated onto titanium nitride to reduce friction and wear.
    Tooling cold handling
    Crimping tools
    Forming tools
    Galling problems of Stainless on Stainless
    Galling problems of Aluminium on Aluminium


    Conveyer systems, Glass plants, Paint spray systems

    Roller chain
    Link assemblies
    Glass plants
    Food processing
    Clean room applications
    Machine assembly sprocket grip chain
    Automotive conveyor


    Servo valves,
    Metering valves,
    Ball valves,
    Fuel automotive injection systems,
    Diesel hydraulic valves and nuclear systems


    Stainless steel components,
    Hydraulic, fuel, air
    Applications where galling is a problem


    Investment Casting Tooling:
    Eliminates the use of silicon sprays and extends life of moving parts


    Plastic Injection Moulding & Extrusion:
    All mould components which contact resin
    Slides, gibs, Ejector Pins
    Enhances flow 3-9% and increases productivity from 5-11% on average.
    Replaces release agents, does not transfer to finished parts.
    Can be coated on top of chrome plating and other hard coatings


    Metal Die Casting:
    Useful lubricant between parts of multipart dies, to prevent seizing, where lubrication is difficult due to high temperatures. Release agent with Zinc


    Use on nozzles & machine guards where spatter needs to be easily removed
  10. mf99

    mf99 New Member

    Jan 11, 2013
    I have a sako m995 chambered in a lazz warbird, with a 27" pac nor barrel. i took it out today and ran some test loads threw it using new brass, this is what i came up with.
    98gr. R25
    210 berger vld
    C.O.A.L 3.615
    FPS 3175
    5 shot group just over 1/2 inch @ 100yds

    96gr. R25
    210 berger vld
    C.O.A.L 3.615
    FPS 3117
    5 shot group under a 1/2 inch @ 100yds
  11. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Thanks for posting all that information. I think ill give bullet coating a go. My question to you is whats your process of treating your barrel first? Also what method so you use to coat your bullets? Ive been reading and really like the method described on 6mmbr. It seems easy enough. Thanks again. Very good info there

    What twist is your pac nor barrel? Ive been leaning towards the 185gr bergers for my 1 in 12 twist.
  12. mf99

    mf99 New Member

    Jan 11, 2013
    I also have a 1 in 12 twist
  13. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2004
    Tungsten is powder and can be mixed with just about anything with no harm... I mix it with isopropyl alcohol and shake it up real well, soak a patch then run throught the bore let sit a few min to let alcohol dry out then mop excess with a clean dry patch just before shooting, acts as a flame / heat barrier and aids in accuracy, can go a lot more rounds without cleaning bbl.... with many brands of coated bullets recoved in tests over the years , rifle engraving on the bullet shows the super slick coating does not shear or rub off the bullet excessively.... leaving minimal copper fouling in the bore.....

    Make certain you degrease the bullets first. I use CRC Brakleen brake parts cleaner, the red can, lay out the bullets on a clean towel spray/hose them down and let dry, Brakleen dries real fast and leaves no residue, once the bullets are dry don't touch them with fingers as the oils on your skin will contaminate the surface of the bullets and ruin your whole batch........

    coating process is in a tumbler for 30 min with ceramic tumbling kernels from a moly coating pack I had, 1 tsp will coat a lot of bullets, tumbling more than 30 min is pointless as the bullets will take what they need, afterwards it's a waste of time

    .338 cal 300 gr. Accubond, coated and "naked"

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  14. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2002
    Thank you very much Swamplord, im going to go your route and coat everything. Ive always wanted to try with moly but tungsten looks better. Lots of good data so far. I think I may try the new Lr accubonds as well.

    Thanks to everyone so far.