HELP with 168 Berger VLD 284 Winchester RL 17 Load

[moosie]

Hi everyone,

I need some help here deciding what to do next.

The rifle is a custom Rem 700 SA Winchester .284, Douglas SS barrel, light varmint, 24" 1:9 twist. B & C stock. Its for huntin. SAAMI spec chamber. Wyatt's custom center-feed mag box max COAL 2.965. Long throated (I don't know why) .216 jump to the lands loaded to mag box max COAL. The bullet is the 168 berger VLD hunting (G7 BC .316) over RL 17.

Win brass, FL resized, trimmed to 2.160". Chamfered. Flash hole cleaned up. Range 100 yards. 3 shot groups. Bipod, sandbag at the back. Chrono'd.

I tried H4350 with the 168 VLDs and it was too slow and the limited case capacity because of the limited COAL due to SA mag length made me not want to keep going any further with any of the 4350's or 4831's (and yes I have them).

So then I cleaned up the necks inside n out (just for kicks) and loaded em and fired em. Then I neck sized that brass with a redding type-S NK .313 bushing (loaded round is .316 diameter). I'm using Redding dies, custom competition shell holder +.008". So then I loaded up some Hornady 139 gr SST's over N150 (48-51 gr) and those are all sub-MOA but the ES's and SD's are high (lowest was ES 24 SD 10, 3006 fps, .665" group).

I've included some data below for ya'll to check out from the 168 VLD's.

A) 2.945" COAL, 51 RL 17, 2776 fps, ES 12 SD 6, .843" (one flyer 2 same hole)

B) 2.945" COAL, 51.4 RL 17, 2815 fps, ES 9 SD 4, 1.10" (one flyer, 2 same hole)

C) 2.945" COAL, 52 RL 17, 2838 fps, ES 20 SD 8, (horizontal string, +MOA)

D) 2.915" COAL, 51 RL 17, 2791 fps, ES 32 SD 14, .690" (one flyer, 2 same hole)

E) 2.845" COAL, 51 RL 17, 2866 fps, ES 46 SD 112, (Vertical string, +MOA)

I have several questions:
1) How much does group size matter in long range shooting (600 yards max) if I have low ES and SD? (it's around MOA)
2) What's with the flyers?
3) Should I just go with the SST's and forget the VLD's?
4) What should I try next with those 168 gr VLD's?

(It seems to make sense to run the 51.4 grain load again with the cleaned up brass and work up till things start dropping off, maybe this post will help me and anyone else with similar issues with a SA .284 Winchester).

Thanks everyone, any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[TOM H]

My 284 is build long action and this is some early loads for SA 284 with R-17.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html

 

[AZShooter]

You didn't mention a couple of things. Is the rifle bedded? What primer are you using?

When you have the flyer is it the third shot, first shot or random within a three shot group?

I also shoot the 168 VLD in my 284 Win.

SA Ruger M77 with rechambered 24" Rem 7-08 now 23 3/4" long. Mag box lengthened to 3.050" Custom reamer, neck .315". Throat is positioned so I can seat the VLDs .010" into the lands . Win brass is neck turned to .0135" wall thickness. Redding bushing is .310" (for .001" fit) Using Fed 210 Match

51 gr of RL-17 was most accurate 2836 fps.
52 grs with this rifle was 2948 fps
53 gr was erratic
54 gr showed some signs of pressure.

I think you could try 52 and maybe even 53 grains of RL-17 with your jump to the lands. Have you gone up that high in testing?



I would go over the rifle ensuring it is absolutely sound with the following addressed:



Front scope base screw should not touch threads of barrel.

imperfection in crown

hole in wood stock too small, drill larger so sides of action screw won't touch

Bolt handle should not touch stock

Mag box must not bind in stock

Recoil lug should not make early contact in bottom of stock's bedded slot causing the rest of the action to sit off bedding

Front of trigger group must not touch stock

Trigger guard must not touch trigger

It you still cannot get the results you want, you could always try the Berger 168 classic hunter. It is a hybrid which are known to seating depth insensitive. I personally have loaded them in three 7 rem mags with excellent results with no changes in seating depth, just seat to feed and fit from magazine and work up powder charge.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Ross

 

[TOM H]

This is from Berger on seating depth

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-for-loading-vld-bullets/

Your getting better accuracy with the Hornady bullet vs Berger VLD.

 

[moosie]

You didn't mention a couple of things. Is the rifle bedded? What primer are you using?

When you have the flyer is it the third shot, first shot or random within a three shot group?

I also shoot the 168 VLD in my 284 Win.

SA Ruger M77 with rechambered 24" Rem 7-08 now 23 3/4" long. Mag box lengthened to 3.050" Custom reamer, neck .315". Throat is positioned so I can seat the VLDs .010" into the lands . Win brass is neck turned to .0135" wall thickness. Redding bushing is .310" (for .001" fit) Using Fed 210 Match

51 gr of RL-17 was most accurate 2836 fps.
52 grs with this rifle was 2948 fps
53 gr was erratic
54 gr showed some signs of pressure.

I think you could try 52 and maybe even 53 grains of RL-17 with your jump to the lands. Have you gone up that high in testing?



I would go over the rifle ensuring it is absolutely sound with the following addressed:



Front scope base screw should not touch threads of barrel.

imperfection in crown

hole in wood stock too small, drill larger so sides of action screw won't touch

Bolt handle should not touch stock

Mag box must not bind in stock

Recoil lug should not make early contact in bottom of stock's bedded slot causing the rest of the action to sit off bedding

Front of trigger group must not touch stock

Trigger guard must not touch trigger

It you still cannot get the results you want, you could always try the Berger 168 classic hunter. It is a hybrid which are known to seating depth insensitive. I personally have loaded them in three 7 rem mags with excellent results with no changes in seating depth, just seat to feed and fit from magazine and work up powder charge.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Ross

AZ Shooter:
Thanks for the reply.

The flyer was always the second shot. I waited 2 mins between shots in a 3 shot group. The 1st and 3rd shots were in the same hole (100 yard range).

The rifle is bedded, recoil lug and screws, aluminium bedding block in the b & c stock. pt&g recoil lug. EGW rail and rings. i'll check everything you else you suggested (I never thought to check all of that out!).

Primers are WLR. I have some Fed 210M's i'll give those a shot.

From my numbers it would seem its the seating depth thats causing the problem. Velocity is good with the RL 17. When I had the rifle built I sent the bullets (168 vld's) and the brass (winchester) and the dies to my gunsmith and I asked him to set up the throat so that I could touch the lands with that specific bullet loaded less than mag box COAL. He never did it...

Charge wise the highest I got to was 52 grs of RL 17. There were no pressure signs. I'll try going above and using a cooler primer than the WLR. Maybe i'll hit an accuracy node up there.

I'll update how it goes but it looks like i'm gonna go with the 139 gr SST's for the hunt. Thanks for the reply!

 

[moosie]

This is from Berger on seating depth

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-for-loading-vld-bullets/

Your getting better accuracy with the Hornady bullet vs Berger VLD.

Thanks for the references to those articles Tom!

Yeah, i'm gonna go with the SST's for the hunt. And I definitely think its the seating depth I need to mess with - need more time to do so though! Those bergers will shoot, I know it!

 

[TOM H]

Thanks for the references to those articles Tom!

Yeah, i'm gonna go with the SST's for the hunt. And I definitely think its the seating depth I need to mess with - need more time to do so though! Those bergers will shoot, I know it!

I agree with you on seating depth. This is another article to read

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...e-on-coal-and-cartridge-base-to-ogive-part-2/