Full Length Sizer Boring

Gary:

My dad was a toolmaker at Cleveland Twist. He met my mom there during WWII. He had a deferment because the work he did was vital to the war movement so he joined the Coast Guard auxillary and patrolled the Great Lakes when he wasn't working.

He died in an industrial accident at Cleveland Twist when I was almost 17 so I never really got to spend a lot of time with him but I still have his tools and his tool box to this day. Before he died he advanced to the department head prototype development.

Mom retired from CT. She's been gone about 15 years now. She worked in final inspection and then in the office in billing.

When I have to buy tooling that Cleveland Twist manufactures, it always comes from there. I don't ever look at cost, I consider them family.

Might have told you but I took my apprenticeship at Standard Products in Cleveland Ohio and earned my Journeymans Card in tool and die making. That was a long time ago but it still seems like yesterday.

Time flies. Like my good friend said to me, "take a tape measure, run it out to 100 and put your finger on your age. Look at 100, you most likely won't live that long. Then look back to the beginning of the tape. Amazing how much time you wasted and how little you have left...... Smart guy my friend is.

I must say, it has been fun for ther most part, but I don't want a repeat performance.

I've actually been in three apprenticeships. First one was actually in sheet metal work, and the two of us were like fire and ice. Was asked to take their entrence test, so I did it on a whim, and was the top scorer. Did a little over two thirds of it, when Uncle Sam came knocking on the door. Went to some then unknown garden spots on the otherside of the planet. During mail call one day I get a large envelope from my mother with a registered letter inside it. They terminated that apprenticeship because I had not shown up for eight months (I swear you can't make this up!). The Union hall ran the apprenticeship program along with a select group from management. I laughed about it, and my squad leader said they can't do that! I said hey look here, they already did a month ago. But if you guys will let me go home I think I can fix it (this was right in the middle of TET 1968). Next day I get a visit from a very nervous JAG officer out of Chu Lai. He said he'd fix the problem. About three to four weeks later he shows up down by Quang Nghai, and he real nervous. Said he had a letter of response in flight, and he'd get word to me when it arrived. About a week later they send me north to Chu Lai to see this guy. He said that when they paid a visit to the joint apprenticeship office in Indy, they threw them out physically. The next day they showed up again in force with U.S. Marshells and the MP's. Took three guys to jail, and shut the entire apprenticeship program down cold! After they finally let them out of jail (held them for three days), and paid a serious fine for assualting a uniformed JAG officer and his civillian aid. They write up a certified letter that had at least a dozen signatures on it telling me that anytime in my entire life that I decide to return to the program I will become the number one person of interests. I never bothered to go back! First job ap I applied for, I was asked to take their apprenticeship test (when I came home). Test was the typical US Government crap, and was easy. They thought I was cheating. Asked me to do another while they watched me thru a two way mirror. Then had me take a third battery of test the next day. I took the Machinest Repair deal. Later I did a Machine Builders apprenticeship. Seemed like I never stopped going to classes for about thirty years (there's lots of things yet to be learned)

On the otherhand, My Dad was a tool maker from Curtiss Wright in Indy. They did the variable pitch props there. He said the place was a sweat shop. He applied for a job at the Allison Engine Company, and they hired him right away. He was to start Jan. 2nd, 1942! So much for that idea! They froze his job, and wouldn't allow him in the military (he was later found to be 4F anyway). He finally got that job after the war ended.

In my first apprenticeship (I really don't claim anything to do with the sheet metal one) I worked with the guy that discovered how to knock out Tiger tanks in Europe. Worked with an old man that was the master machinest for the Dusenberg Brothers at Indy building race cars (this all ties in together later), and the Stutze Bearcat racing team. I told Joe that my Dad and Harry Miller were close friends, and my Dad was the guy who machined the first Miller 91 engines for them. Joe knew Harry and probably met my Dad somewhere along the way. The other guys were out of the ship building yards, and they snatched them up in January 1942 for an all expense trip to Pearl Harbor. One tough generation!
gary
 
Gary,

I appreciate your point. Ya gotta go with whatcha got. I look at the ancient clock movements and am in awe of how they were made!

Craftsmen are craftsmen are craftsmen. What ever the discipline.

I have a picture of a Plexiglass looking thing that my Dad thought was a clock or something. He built it back in the early 1950's for Allisons. It turned out to be a Sterling Engine prototype. He told me about cutting the first gas turbine blades done over here. Said they scraped far more than they made good ones (he ground all of them). I used to rib him and the guys about working close all the time <g>! They were in the .0002" frame of mind, and I was mastering slides within .000050". He asked one day for a chance to see what we were doing and I brought him in for a couple hours. We actually learned some things from him on machining those slides that made it easier. You gotta always be learning or you become stagnent
gary
 
Hello Bumper! How are things downunder? As far as I know, no one makes anything in 6.5 with a .550" body? How is your bullet making going......Rich

I am good mate , how are you ?
You might be right . I thought there may be a 6.5 magnum of some kind in a Lee collet die that might do the job .
My bullet making is going ok . I knock up a batch now and then when I need them .
How is your Elk hunting going ? We call them Wapiti down under but I have never seen one as they are fairly rare .
 
I am good mate , how are you ?
You might be right . I thought there may be a 6.5 magnum of some kind in a Lee collet die that might do the job .
My bullet making is going ok . I knock up a batch now and then when I need them .
How is your Elk hunting going ? We call them Wapiti down under but I have never seen one as they are fairly rare .

Bear season is right around the corner. I hope to go toward the end of May and pop one with my new build. 6.5 SS with 160 grain Matrix (.720 b.c.) Saves me from having to make my own. You know how spendy all those dies can be:D I have to wait to Oct. to hunt elk. Good to hear from you......rich
 
Hope you get that Bear . I have learned to make a few of my own dies now to save money . Replaced a few core swagers and core seaters so far but have not made a point forming die as yet . That one is much harder to make.
I have found out that when the bullet starts to get stuck in the point former it is because the core seater is worn out not the point former .
It has got bigger in ID and lost it critical match .
Most point formers will outlast two core seaters , especially if swagers use excessive core seating pressures .
The best steel to make a swage die is Bohler K110 equivalent in the USA would be something like Graph-Air .
Now I bet you really needed to know that :)
 
Hope you get that Bear . I have learned to make a few of my own dies now to save money . Replaced a few core swagers and core seaters so far but have not made a point forming die as yet . That one is much harder to make.
I have found out that when the bullet starts to get stuck in the point former it is because the core seater is worn out not the point former .
It has got bigger in ID and lost it critical match .
Most point formers will outlast two core seaters , especially if swagers use excessive core seating pressures .
The best steel to make a swage die is Bohler K110 equivalent in the USA would be something like Graph-Air .
Now I bet you really needed to know that :)

I've built dies from S5, S7, A2, D2 (forget that one), and a 0-1 and 0-6, and even 4350 pretreat steel. Seems like I made one forming die out of Air Die once, and that became a nightmare! I left too much stock in the I.D. to grind, and never could get it finished out!! I also made a set of 1-2-3 blocks at the sametime with .015" grind stock on each face. I still have them stashed away, and are about half ground! The easiest was 4350 that I later nitrided. A2 did just fine. Hated S7 and S5. D2 wasn't strong enough and cracked under pressure. For me to make another set of dies, it would probably be A2 or 4350 pretreat steel
gary
 
I have found D2 to be quite good so far and it is very dimensionally stable during heat treat .
I don't try to match the core seater and former as close as the die makers say to , that is pure BS . I make the core seater .0015 to .002 under the point former and it works fine . Gives you plenty of wear in the cores seater before the match is lost and makes it real easy to lapp to a workable size .
I guess it depends on how much pressure you are putting on the die. To make upto 30 cal bullets I have found that D2 is ok in the core swager and seater so far. Can't say for a point former but Corbins used Graph Air at one time and that is basicly D2 tool steel . None of my dies have ever cracked .
I use Bohler steel so that may be different to other makes in some way. Maybe the heat treating is the issue .
I'm talking about bullet swaging dies not reloading dies.
 
Last edited:
I have found D2 to be quite good so far and it is very dimensionally stable during heat treat .
I don't try to match the core seater and former as close as the die makers say to , that is pure BS . I make the core seater .0015 to .002 under the point former and it works fine . Gives you plenty of wear in the cores seater before the match is lost and makes it real easy to lapp to a workable size .
I guess it depends on how much pressure you are putting on the die. To make upto 30 cal bullets I have found that D2 is ok in the core swager and seater so far. Can't say for a point former but Corbins used Graph Air at one time and that is basicly D2 tool steel . None of my dies have ever cracked .
I use Bohler steel so that may be different to other makes in some way. Maybe the heat treating is the issue .
I'm talking about bullet swaging dies not reloading dies.

D2 machines well and does heat treat well, but all I've worked with has a tendencey to crack under high stress (with a thin wall). Wear wise D2 would be better in my book. But I find A2 to be easier to work with once you learn what it likes and dislikes. The one thing I like about A2 is that it dosn't change during heat treat. I can leave about a half thousandths in the bore, and thru harden it. Then give it a nice polish job with three steps of emery and black paper. I've built core swedgers out of D2 and A2 and maybe a small handfull out of S5 or S7. These all worked well for the guy I built them for. A2 was the easiest as I had just about every size of A2 drill rod in stock. But on the otherhand the same fellow had me build him several stepped punches, and without a doubt D2 and A2 were the best to work with. I think D2 may grind a little better. I did make him a handfull of step punches out of Speedstar once, and the stuff turned well, but was a pain to grind. Had to use three different wheels to get it down to the sizes he wanted, and the radiuses were hell! Rex M2 would have been far easier (didn't have anything small laying around.).

One thing I did learn fast with D2 was to single point as much stack as you can out of the bore, and try to get by reaming less than .010" altogether. I learned the hard way on that one! Another issue I had with D2 was after hardening, I wanted to draw it back. Had problems with the stock moving on me. For me anyway, I don't think it's quite as stable as A2. But I still prefer the 4350 and 4150 pretreat steels with a deep nitride.
gary
 
I have found D2 to be quite good so far and it is very dimensionally stable during heat treat .
I don't try to match the core seater and former as close as the die makers say to , that is pure BS . I make the core seater .0015 to .002 under the point former and it works fine . Gives you plenty of wear in the cores seater before the match is lost and makes it real easy to lapp to a workable size .
I guess it depends on how much pressure you are putting on the die. To make upto 30 cal bullets I have found that D2 is ok in the core swager and seater so far. Can't say for a point former but Corbins used Graph Air at one time and that is basicly D2 tool steel . None of my dies have ever cracked .
I use Bohler steel so that may be different to other makes in some way. Maybe the heat treating is the issue .
I'm talking about bullet swaging dies not reloading dies.

To tell the truth on myself, I've got my butt in trouble more than a few times with Air Die, Graphmo, and a few others. Of that lot, I'd like to try Air Shock (can you still get it?). Air Shock seems to be similar to A2, but all I've worked with machines better. I gave all my data for it away about seven years ago. After thinking a minute or two between posts, The very first core swedgers I made were out of Keteos (sp). The stuff cuts well, and grinds very well. RDS was another I played with, and it is tougher to cut in a lathe, but wears forever. Vega cuts better than Speedstar, and prefered it to S7 and S5.
gary
 
I can see what you are saying. The steel I can get that is an A2 steel is Bohler K305 and I would be quite happy making a die from it . It is not like I have a huge warehouse of steel to choose from . I tend to use what I can get to some degree . It is far harder over here due to lack of product choice .
Some of the steels you talk about I have never heard of .
When I go to the steel supplier I tend to try and buy offcuts so sometimes you take what you can get.
Next time I go I will try to get some A2 and give it a go.
 
I can see what you are saying. The steel I can get that is an A2 steel is Bohler K305 and I would be quite happy making a die from it . It is not like I have a huge warehouse of steel to choose from . I tend to use what I can get to some degree . It is far harder over here due to lack of product choice .
Some of the steels you talk about I have never heard of .
When I go to the steel supplier I tend to try and buy offcuts so sometimes you take what you can get.
Next time I go I will try to get some A2 and give it a go.

Remember you can buy A2 in drill rod, and that puts you ahead of the game from the start. Before buying any, I'd check to see if my heat treater was setup to do air hardening steels. Most are. I used to have an in with a major heat treater that could do it all in vacume furnaces, and he'd do my high speed steels for a six pack of beer if I wasn't in a big hurry (never are). A die just dosn't have to rockwell at 62 contary to popular beliefe. Even 55rc will do nicely.

I almost always setup with a standard type cobalt drill to get a hole thru it with a spray mist coolant setup. Then I cleaned up the drilled hole with a carbide boring bar. After that (believe it or not) I went in there with a four flute core drill to get the bore within about .025". Cleaned it up once more and reamed it. I'm sure there are better ways, but that always worked well for me.
gary
 
Hey guys,

This is one heck of a conversation. I have no idea of what you are talking about regarding types of steel etc. but. . .

How in the heck is a pointing die made? What kind of a tool or process is used to get the ogive and point. I'd really like to understand more about that.

Regards,
Roy
 
Warning! This thread is more than 11 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top