argeea
Active Member
been reading about famous snipers, specially around wwII. most seem to prefer single power scopes. was it because variable power were not available or some other reason? Would really enjoy output from serious shooters
fixed power scopes
- Thread starter argeea
- Start date
A/C Guy
Well-Known Member
Durability, dependability, when your life literally depends upon the outcome of the first shot, you want 100% confidence.
Variable scopes have only recently been on par with fixed scopes when comparing image quality and repeatability.
A sniper is almost never going to engage a target closer than 100 yards, so he would not need to lower the magnification to 4 or 6. At 100 yards, you can easily engage using 20x or more if using a fixed scope.
Edit to add:
Apparently some misinterpreted my last sentence as to mean that the snipers were issued 20X, it did not mean that. It was to point out that variables are not necessary. They were over hyped as necessary by the scope manufacturers to sell more. A fixed 10x or 16x or 20x is all one needs to engage a man sized target from 100 yards to over a 1000 yards in the role of a sniper.
Fixed scopes have always been more dependable. Even today there is a risk of the reticle walking when changing magnification.
Variable scopes have only recently been on par with fixed scopes when comparing image quality and repeatability.
A sniper is almost never going to engage a target closer than 100 yards, so he would not need to lower the magnification to 4 or 6. At 100 yards, you can easily engage using 20x or more if using a fixed scope.
Edit to add:
Apparently some misinterpreted my last sentence as to mean that the snipers were issued 20X, it did not mean that. It was to point out that variables are not necessary. They were over hyped as necessary by the scope manufacturers to sell more. A fixed 10x or 16x or 20x is all one needs to engage a man sized target from 100 yards to over a 1000 yards in the role of a sniper.
Fixed scopes have always been more dependable. Even today there is a risk of the reticle walking when changing magnification.
Last edited:
ShtrRdy
Well-Known Member
From what I've read, back when sniper weapon systems relied on fixed power scopes, it was 10x magnification.
Skimbleshanks
Well-Known Member
I don't think they preferred them so much as that is what they were issued. Couple that with the cost and often quality issues of earlier variables, fixed power scopes weren't an option, they were the only option.
Hand Skills
Well-Known Member
Hmm...some of the answers here seem a bit misinformed.
Here is a good overview by someone who knows what he's talking about, and provides many supporting facts;
Here is a good overview by someone who knows what he's talking about, and provides many supporting facts;
Privi457
Well-Known Member
Almost all sniper scopes before the USMC Unertl target 8X (WW II) were 2-4X.
Most folks today have never tried a quality low X scope like the All Weather Lyman Alaskan. As JOC proved with his (with a SIX inch dot), a low X scope is no barrier to killing animals.
In my collection is an experimental Rochester B&L one off BalTur 2.5X with a mildot setup. Amazing how far away you can hit things with it. A "man" target at 600 yards is a piece of cake.
Most folks today have never tried a quality low X scope like the All Weather Lyman Alaskan. As JOC proved with his (with a SIX inch dot), a low X scope is no barrier to killing animals.
In my collection is an experimental Rochester B&L one off BalTur 2.5X with a mildot setup. Amazing how far away you can hit things with it. A "man" target at 600 yards is a piece of cake.
xsn10s
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 10,073
- Reaction score
- 22,665
I'm not sure what variables were available during WWI and WWII but variables during that time could change POA/POI throughout their magnification range. It can even happen today with lower quality scopes, or those who have a mechanical issue. So a fixed scope can be more reliable due to less moving parts. If those snipers from the past "preferred" a fixed power scope I imagine it was due to reliability. But more likely they used them because that was what they were issued. I recently got a SWFA 10X side focus from the sample list for $297 shipped. I purchased it because of the price, reasonable brightness/ clarity, reliability, and 140 MOA elevation adjustments. This scope is on a 22-250 because my 260 AI project got stalled again. I glassed with it out to 1.3 miles for a month prior to mounting it on a rifle. It worked reasonably well in all sorts of lighting conditions and I was able to see easily see crows and other smaller objects at that distance. This weekend I shot a bunch of 55gr flat based bullets in that burned out 22-250 barrel out to 800 yards. It has a decent FOV so I can pick out targets okay at varying distances, during hunting field conditions remains to be seen. Overall I'm pretty happy with it for the cost. It's still useful, but a good quality variable is more flexible depending on what your needs are.
yobuck
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
- Messages
- 2,823
- Reaction score
- 2,528
- City & State/Province
- east central fl. /n.c. pa.
What isnt mentioned in the video is dialing the scope.
The WW2 era data would have consisted of close range targets with hold and shoot methods.
Although Carlos Hathcocks Unertle scope appears to have the scope blocks set up properly for dialing, ive never read that he actually did any dialing.
In reading Chris Kyles book, he lists the various weapon choices he had. His personal favorite however was the 300 Win Mag with a Nightforce Variable power scope zeroed for 400 yards. So he did very little by way of dialing also, just choosing to hold center mass, and up or down as the distance required for the most part.
His kill numbers were much higher due to operating in urban locations with high numbers of targets.
Same as many of the Russians in WW2.
What also needs to be remembered is that untill the 80s there really werent any good choices in variable power scopes with target type knobs, especially in this country. Which is the reason target type scopes in a fixed power like Unertle were the main choice for long range hunting.
The only real choice in a variable power was the Bausch & Lomb 6x24 Balvar target scope with the turret swapped out for a Unertle type made by Kuharsky.
So although fixed power scopes in a lower power were and still are a good choice for a long range optic, it still needs to be remembered that untill not very long ago they were the only choice.
The WW2 era data would have consisted of close range targets with hold and shoot methods.
Although Carlos Hathcocks Unertle scope appears to have the scope blocks set up properly for dialing, ive never read that he actually did any dialing.
In reading Chris Kyles book, he lists the various weapon choices he had. His personal favorite however was the 300 Win Mag with a Nightforce Variable power scope zeroed for 400 yards. So he did very little by way of dialing also, just choosing to hold center mass, and up or down as the distance required for the most part.
His kill numbers were much higher due to operating in urban locations with high numbers of targets.
Same as many of the Russians in WW2.
What also needs to be remembered is that untill the 80s there really werent any good choices in variable power scopes with target type knobs, especially in this country. Which is the reason target type scopes in a fixed power like Unertle were the main choice for long range hunting.
The only real choice in a variable power was the Bausch & Lomb 6x24 Balvar target scope with the turret swapped out for a Unertle type made by Kuharsky.
So although fixed power scopes in a lower power were and still are a good choice for a long range optic, it still needs to be remembered that untill not very long ago they were the only choice.
A/C Guy
Well-Known Member
I think the trend to ultra high magnification is due to the increased numbers of target shooters and the decreased numbers of hunters. I would wager that target shooters comprise more than 80% of rifle owners. When target shooting with your buddies, FOV is not a consideration, only the ability to see the target as big as possible to hit it.
Most hunters are over scoped. It is hard to find a low power scope in a gun store today. Even 3-9 is becoming more rare as the trend is 12x or 16x or 20x being preferred.
A/C Guy
Well-Known Member
Fixed it for you;)No way you can hit a deer at 200 yards without a custom action and a $4000 5-35 x56 with 34mm tube scope cranked all the way up while shooting prone with a bipod and 3 sand bags
xsn10s
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 10,073
- Reaction score
- 22,665
I have a fixed Leupold 2.5X on a Marlin 45-70. That's my bear protection/ close range hunting rifle. Enough magnification for me to hit out to 400 yards with my handloads. Low enough mag for me to make hits close in. Always on the same magnification so I won't make the mistake of being on a higher power when I need it for a "oh sh&t!" situation.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Brief history of the rifle scope.
1835 to 1840 saw the development of a rifle based optic. By 1850 they were being used in a very limited number and were very low fixed power. (Normally 2x to 6x) and had adjustable mounts only.
In WW1, the Germans were quick to see the advantages in telescopic siting and used/issued up to 25,000 to special units. Most of These were 4x to 8x in some cases. The us got in on the optics game with some 6x Warner and Swase in limited numbers.
By WW 2 there were more uses by the military and the US issued (In some cases) the 2.5x Lyman and the 10x Unertl These were still fixed power scopes. Some of the more famous European snipers still used Iron sites for dependability.
In Korea, optics were not widely used or needed. And not until Vietnam did they become popular or part of training on there use. By this time the variable scope had been developed (Around 1950 and on), and many of the snipers purchased there own scopes earlier on, and many used the Civilian versions of their choice until the military started issuing them.
Variable scopes were not considered very dependable for many years and fixed power were considered the best if you life depended on it. Even up to the 90s this was mostly true and fix power was the bench mark for accurate rifle scopes even though most target scopes had adjustable mounts.
With current technology, the fixed power and adjustable systems are almost gone except in special applications.
J E CUSTOM
1835 to 1840 saw the development of a rifle based optic. By 1850 they were being used in a very limited number and were very low fixed power. (Normally 2x to 6x) and had adjustable mounts only.
In WW1, the Germans were quick to see the advantages in telescopic siting and used/issued up to 25,000 to special units. Most of These were 4x to 8x in some cases. The us got in on the optics game with some 6x Warner and Swase in limited numbers.
By WW 2 there were more uses by the military and the US issued (In some cases) the 2.5x Lyman and the 10x Unertl These were still fixed power scopes. Some of the more famous European snipers still used Iron sites for dependability.
In Korea, optics were not widely used or needed. And not until Vietnam did they become popular or part of training on there use. By this time the variable scope had been developed (Around 1950 and on), and many of the snipers purchased there own scopes earlier on, and many used the Civilian versions of their choice until the military started issuing them.
Variable scopes were not considered very dependable for many years and fixed power were considered the best if you life depended on it. Even up to the 90s this was mostly true and fix power was the bench mark for accurate rifle scopes even though most target scopes had adjustable mounts.
With current technology, the fixed power and adjustable systems are almost gone except in special applications.
J E CUSTOM
