Fat bottom gurls....

[BigDaddyKane]

Velocity isn't nearly as important as consistency of the load. If a load at 2800fps is has less deviation than a 3000fps load... I'm going for the 2800. I'd rather know that my follow up shot is exactly where I'm aiming. Naturally, so long as we are under safe working pressure, I'm going to try for the fastest MV I can get; but again... consistency is far more important. I'll sacrifice a couple hundred fps to find the most accurate/consistent load any day of the week.

 

[LouBoyd]

Velocity isn't nearly as important as consistency of the load. If a load at 2800fps is has less deviation than a 3000fps load... I'm going for the 2800. I'd rather know that my follow up shot is exactly where I'm aiming. Naturally, so long as we are under safe working pressure, I'm going to try for the fastest MV I can get; but again... consistency is far more important. .

Theere are lots of variable which determing what velocity will be most accurate. I don't run my rifles at high pressure, rarely over 90% of SAAMI max for modern rifles and cartridges, but for long range shooting I disagree that slower than close to the practical maximum is usually better. The consistancy which is most important is the grouping at the target, not the extreme spread (ES) or standard deviation (SD) in velocity as mesured with a chronograph. A faster bullet with a larger ES and SD can often produce smaller groups.. Why?

Drop is equal to 1/2 g* t^2 where g is the acceleration of gravity ~ 32 ft/sec^2 and T is the time of flight. Given equal bullets the time of flight will always be shorter for the bullet with the higher muzzle velcity if both are stable, making the effect of SD and ES produce smaller vertical stringing.
Barrel harmonics can increase or decrease the vertical spread at the target of some causes of
velocity variation. The effect of barrel vibration varies greatly from rifle to rifle. It's difficult enough to predict that ballistic computer programs don't even try, but it's fairly easy to measure with shooting tests.

In my opinion the only reliable method of picking a velocity is with ladder tests, shoting a series of shots with slowly increasing loads and seeing where they "bunch", then using a pont near the middle of one bunch as the selected load. The tests shoud be made at the distance the rifle will be used where stringing errors will be most signifcant for achieving desired results. If one bunch has fliers and another doesn't pick the one that doesn't. I've never seen it, but if the bullets in the ladder test just move uniformly up the target with equal spacing I'd still pick the higher velocity end knowing it will have less sensitivity to range estmation errors and lower wind deflection.

Measruing ES and ES can show loads which are bound to give bad results, but good ES and SD alone won't guarantee good accuracy.

Ladder tests are valid for the conditions they were shot in. They aren't valid if anyitng makes a major change to the velocity of the buillet or which changes the vibrations of the rifle. A large powder temperature change or the additition of a suppressor would be examples.

I may scacrifice a couple of hundred fps for better accuracy too, but from my expericnce better accuracy is found at the higher velocity node more often then not when there is more than one practical node to choose from.

 

[BigDaddyKane]

Ok let me rephrase... the most reliable load is more important in my opinion... not just the fastest. You claim that typically at higher MV's you're more likely to have flatter trajectory and better chances for accuracy. I agree. I believe we are arguing the same point just in different manners. What I was trying to get at is that I'd much rather sacrifice some MV if I am dead nuts accurate and consistent with a lesser MV load. Some times different powder combinations used in order to achieve a higher MV may be more sensitive to temperature changes and climate. With that in mind it all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Overall, I'm personally more satisfied with a load combination that I can more easily predict and can rely on. BUT... in agreement with what you are trying to say... a faster MV will typically produce flatter trajectory and less drift (provided they are the same bullets conditions etc etc). With that in mind they will more likely remain at the same point of impact. This I completely agree on. I was just making the point that if I find a powder combination that has a lower MV but produces tighter grouped shots, and is less affected by variable such as temperature, I'll gladly sacrifice the velocity. Agreed?

 

[19elkhunter51]

I have been on this forum for a while. I don't load as much as I used to but what absolutely amazes me is when a person say this caliber/cartridge/rifle/scope/powder/primer/action is better than........... WHO CARES!!!!!

I don't want an arguement. I want information. If xyz works for you I am glad it does. It may not work for me.

There has been some of the most cogent comments in this thread that I have ever read on this forum. The responses to the comments are less than what I think we need to give to each other.

Unless you are shooting at my bench with my riflle, please, a simple, polite, I disagree with you but like to continue the conversation would be great.

 

[Outlaw81]

Amen to that. I love it when I can tell someone's read something that sounds good and can't understand that there are tons of variables that come in to play. Namely gun quality, load consistency and shooter's abilities. I believe I started this thread to simply state that the 300wsm is capable of some great stuff as are the other wsm's. When people wanna print a dictionary about their limited experience in a futile attempt at a ****ing contest do I wonder why the hell I even bother.

 

[INTJ1]

Amen to that. I love it when I can tell someone's read something that sounds good and can't understand that there are tons of variables that come in to play. Namely gun quality, load consistency and shooter's abilities. I believe I started this thread to simply state that the 300wsm is capable of some great stuff as are the other wsm's. When people wanna print a dictionary about their limited experience in a futile attempt at a ****ing contest do I wonder why the hell I even bother.

That's not exactly what happened. Among the things you said when you started this thread, you explained how a 300 WSM can shoot faster than a 300 Win Mag. I respectfully disagreed with that idea and you became defensive. I was hoping for a respectful discussion and am sorry you became defensive, but I am not the one who reacted in a urinary manner.........at least not this time..............

I have a lot of time behind both the 300 Win and the 300 WSM, and I have done not an insignificant amount of precision shooting. We simply can't overcome an 11% difference in case capacity when we make an apples-to-apples comparison.

Sure, there are one-off exceptions, like the long throated 30-06 I had that shot 168 grain Barnes bullets at the same velocities as my tight throated 300 WSM, but that is an unsual occurance. Crud, I was able to get 3250 fps from a 26" barrel 300 Win, but again, that is not representative of velocities obtainable at SAAMI pressure limits. We can find an exception for most anything, but what is most useful are normally obtainable results.

However, instead of us arguing using our own limited experience, since no single shooter's expereince amounts to a hill of beans when considered in the context of the last 100+ years of smokeless powder shooting; here is what a REAL expert says. This is from Robert Rinker's book "Understanding Ballistics," Second Revised Edition, 1998, page 177.


"A series of tests were described in 'The American Rifleman' during the summer of 1946 and mentioned again in 1981. Three cases were tested, all of the same capacity and all necked to take identical .22 caliber bullets. One case had a conventional body taper and a long 14 degree shoulder. Another had a very long body taper and a 35 degree shoulder. The third had a little body taper and a concave radius shoulder.

Velocities and pressures were measured by both electronic-transducer and copper-crusher methods. It was reported that the performance was almost identical, within the expected error. [Bold is in the original text] This very carefully controlled labratory experiment found no difference in ballistic performance.

So is all this deliberation on cartridge design a waste of time? Of course not. But it does show that some theories, no matter how well meaning and well founded, are not as useful as expected.

VOLUME

Cartridge volume is the primary element in projectile muzzle velocity and energy. "

Where I do agree with you is the short fat cases seem to be awfully accurate and very efficient. I have the trophies and targets to back that up. I absolutely love the 300 WSM.......................