Extraction problems 6/284

[Iron Worker]

As long as I had this bbl I had extraction problem. Were my loads to hot,improper sizing or fire forming ? I took the rifle to a different gunsmith he inserted a "Go no go chamber guage" Bolt wouldn't close on chamber . New gunsmith said "Former gunsmith didn't run the chamber reamer in far enough ! " I'd load and shoot light loads for a while ,put rifle away and shoot some thing else for a while . Then pick this rifle up and have same problem ! . Anyway had the bad chamber job done two years ago,he also missed the timing on the muzzle brake " Gun wrecker charged me big bucks for chamber job . Should I call him up and ask for refund ? He isn't a professional gunsmith ,only does it on side for his friends.He was recommended to me by one of his friends. I don't want this guy touching my guns again.
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[Hired Gun]

Even the world famous Ken Brooks from the AGI gunsmith school who worked under Long time Lassen gunsmith school head instructor Bob Dunlap for over 20 years doesn't use headspace gauges. They go off a new brass. For target rifles it's very common to size the chamber to a lot of brass to minimize the working of that brass. As long as you are able to resize it enough to chamber easily a short chamber will not cause extraction problems. Even if it was exact sammi specs right between go and no go factory new brass can be up to .010" short and still be in spec. Point is that a short chamber will not cause hard extraction.

What can cause hard extraction is an action that is out of time on the bolt handle due to cutting too much from the bolt lugs, or lug abutments or combination of both to cause the loss of primary extraction from the action. This is very common from a smith that means well but just carve away not knowing the consequences. Has the action been trued ever in it's past? Only way to know is if you owned it since new. The other thing that will cause hard extraction is brass that is expanded down near the base where the full length die will not reach. How does it act with new brass?

 

[FearNoWind]

... Should I call him up and ask for refund ? He isn't a professional gunsmith ,only does it on side for his friends. He was recommended to me by one of his friends. I don't want this guy touching my guns again.

I see red flags all over your story. I wouldn't bother contacting the guy who did the work. I'd just stay away from his shop and find someone who actually is a trained and experienced gunsmith (not a title that is easily earned) and go on with your life.

 

[Iron Worker]

I won't be contacting him,and will go on with my life .

 

[Iron Worker]

Even the world famous Ken Brooks from the AGI gunsmith school who worked under Long time Lassen gunsmith school head instructor Bob Dunlap for over 20 years doesn't use headspace gauges. They go off a new brass. For target rifles it's very common to size the chamber to a lot of brass to minimize the working of that brass. As long as you are able to resize it enough to chamber easily a short chamber will not cause extraction problems. Even if it was exact sammi specs right between go and no go factory new brass can be up to .010" short and still be in spec. Point is that a short chamber will not cause hard extraction.

What can cause hard extraction is an action that is out of time on the bolt handle due to cutting too much from the bolt lugs, or lug abutments or combination of both to cause the loss of primary extraction from the action. This is very common from a smith that means well but just carve away not knowing the consequences. Has the action been trued ever in it's past? Only way to know is if you owned it since new. The other thing that will cause hard extraction is brass that is expanded down near the base where the full length die will not reach. How does it act with new brass?[/QUO

Very interesting what you say,this is 3rd bbl and didn't have extraction problems on other barrels. On new Lupua brass zero extraction problems ,2nd firing with exact same load of 1st firing I had problems !
3rd firing if I loaded light and seated bullet deeper extraction problem was 80% better. Any how its with new gunsmith who has a no turn neck reamer sized for Lupua brass.

 

[Hired Gun]

Did the last guy true the action? Have your new guy check primary extraction. It might need the bolt handle corrected.

 

[Punisher]

If the only thing that changed was the barrel this time. (Was he action trued the first time it was re-barreled?)

I don't think bolt handle timing would be the culprit unless the action was just trued.

Do you full length size or neck size? You need to gather more information to determine this cause. Playing devils advocate here... What if the gun is perfect and your loading setup has changed?

 

[Iron Worker]

If the only thing that changed was the barrel this time. (Was he action trued the first time it was re-barreled?)

I don't think bolt handle timing would be the culprit unless the action was just trued.

Do you full length size or neck size? You need to gather more information to determine this cause. Playing devils advocate here... What if the gun is perfect and your loading setup has changed?

I full length size and have even used a small base die that redding sales . This is 3rd bbl on this rifle and in this caliber ,didn't have this problem with other bbls. Not sure if he trued action to this new bbl ? I load for all my rifles and have never had extraction problems like this . My Mod 70 Classic in 7WSM has a custom Brux bbl and chamber and I have absolutely zero extraction problems with that rifle.

 

[Punisher]

I full length size and have even used a small base die that redding sales . This is 3rd bbl on this rifle and in this caliber ,didn't have this problem with other bbls. Not sure if he trued action to this new bbl ? I load for all my rifles and have never had extraction problems like this . My Mod 70 Classic in 7WSM has a custom Brux bbl and chamber and I have absolutely zero extraction problems with that rifle.

Take your barrel off and measure the concentricity around the chamber. If the chamber is off just a few thousandths, that will cause poor extraction.

This can also be from poorly cut threads. If the lathe wasn't calibrated before this project, that would be a major contributing factor.

 

[Iron Worker]

Take your barrel off and measure the concentricity around the chamber. If the chamber is off just a few thousandths, that will cause poor extraction.

This can also be from poorly cut threads. If the lathe wasn't calibrated before this project, that would be a major contributing factor.

Very interesting what your saying . Its at a New gunsmith now ,and he's going to re chamber it and do everything that needs to be done to make it right. He said " the 1st problem is there was a pressure ring around the shoulder of my fired cartridges ( That were loaded with moderate to maximum charges) that was the cause of extraction problems " and will investigate further for additional issues .

 

[Punisher]

Yeah, an off center or wide bore with the reamer could be the wildcard on that one, if the guy who chambered it used a reamer that was bent very slightly, or too dull, you can get a little wobble while you are reaming the chamber. An over sized chamber leads to over-expansion of your brass, which can give your brass a pressure ring around the shoulder (the part of the reamer thAt is the easiest to damage or dull.)

If the new gunsmith sets it back and re-bores, he may not be able to go back far enough... If it still has this issue when new gunsmith is done... I would have to surmise that your barrel chamber is toast and you need a new barrel... And then get a brand new, quality, reamer and go from scratch.

If you get the chance, reply to this thread with what the new smith tells you. I am anxious to learn.

 

[Hired Gun]

What constitutes an oversized chamber? Ackley Improved chambers are significantly oversized and they extract just fine.

There is no magic to chamber sizing. Every reamer and every chamber is unique as a fingerprint. As long as the same brass is fired in the same chamber is doesn't matter a few thousandths here or there as long as it not mechanically locking into a ringed groove in the chamber. Unless the same smith cuts each barrel to the same spec with the exact same reamer on the same day you cannot expect fired brass from one rifle to fit another even though they are the same caliber. It can happen but it's the exception when it does.

 

[Punisher]

When I say over sized, I can describe that is when you drop a round into the chamber and don't close the bolt, you will hear it rattle. (My cousin has a .270 that did this before he sent it back to Remington)

Or the chamber can just not be the right shape.

 

[Iron Worker]

Yeah, an off center or wide bore with the reamer could be the wildcard on that one, if the guy who chambered it used a reamer that was bent very slightly, or too dull, you can get a little wobble while you are reaming the chamber. An over sized chamber leads to over-expansion of your brass, which can give your brass a pressure ring around the shoulder (the part of the reamer thAt is the easiest to damage or dull.)

If the new gunsmith sets it back and re-bores, he may not be able to go back far enough... If it still has this issue when new gunsmith is done... I would have to surmise that your barrel chamber is toast and you need a new barrel... And then get a brand new, quality, reamer and go from scratch.

If you get the chance, reply to this thread with what the new smith tells you. I am anxious to learn.

Ok I have the rifle back ,will shoot it tomorrow. Gunsmith ran the new reamer in it and said "This reamer is a SAMMIE spec Hunting reamer no more turning necks" I asked him how was I able to chamber a round in the gun if chamber was too short he said " I was adjusting my dies wrong ?" (I was adjusting to the shell holder and than down another 1/8 turn) He said now with new brass Adjust to the shell holder but back off 1/8 of a turn. Sounds like he's telling me to neck size my brass ? Also I have 50 Lupua brass that I sized already and he said shooting those I might have a ring around the head ,and could ruin the brass. So he said "Seat the bullets out to contact rifling lands and load a moderate charge to fire form them to new chamber. So that's what I'll do. He also said "Nothing wrong with my throat " Thanks for your interest . Web page for this gunsmith www.jrhadvancedgunsmithing.com