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Defiance AnTi question

Colin78

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
423
Location
Texas Hill Country
I have a XM length Defiance AnTi action that the bolt sticks on. Raising the bold is smooth , tight but smooth, but once at the top of the bolt left the last little bit of lift is stiff. It does this not just when ejecting a round right after firing it, indicating heavy bolt lift, but even if I rechamber the fired round. Once the brass is resized this does not happen. Is this normal with Defiance actions, specifically the AnTi action? If not normal what am I doing wrong or how do I correct this?
 
Yep. Definitely sounds like you are running hot.


What was throwing me off is it does this even when cycling fired brass. Not just ejecting the brass right after firing, but if I put that fired brass back in and eject it, it does the same thing. I have experienced heavy bolt lift right after firing in many other actions but don't remember even experiencing this on already fired brass.
 
Bolt lift upon initial firing is caused by an overpanded case to chamber fit. This will be apparent if you put that same case in and close the bolt and repeat opening/extraction. The case isnt magically going to shrink trying it the second time. Headspace on the case is slightly longer than the chamber, or shoulder/base dimensions have grown tight causing chamber drag, properly known as clickers. You're either over pressure, or have loose die to chamber fitment relationship. As in your die isn't sizing the brass enough, or if it is your pressure is still too high.
 
All modern rifle chamberings are loaded to pressures that permanently deform brass, meaning that even loaded to normal top working pressures, the case will be tight to some degree in the chamber. What your feeling is likely the mechanical cam making contact which mechanically pulls the tight case out of the chamber. All modern receivers have a mechanical cam device to do this, as such, you usually never notice the tightness of the case in the chamber at normal top working pressures. If you do feel resistence, it can be caused by many things, most common to handloaders is excessive pressure or brass that has many firings on it. Brass has elastic properties which means it stretches under a pressure load. Then when the pressure drops, the case will contract slightly allowing us to extract the case.

the higher the pressure, the harder the brass is pressed against the chamber walls and the less it will contract. The older the brass, the less elastic properties the brass has as it work hardens from repeated heat and pressure cycles.

point being, never try to rechamber a fired unsized case, that in and of itself will not hurt a rifle but if there is any dirt in the chamber of on the case, it can lead to scratched chambers.
this is also why i never recommend neck sizing only rifle brass. In some limited applications it can work well but for most large big game hunting rifles, its not a good idea.

Forcing an unsized case back into your chamber will often cause a tighter fit then it was right after firing as the brass will relax a bit when extracted, especially if brass is older.

likely running pressures a bit to high or have older brass.

the larger diameter the case, the larger surface area mating to the chamber as well, which will exaggerate this problem. This is why a 223 can be loaded to +75,000 psi and not even be able to tell there are any pressure issues but a 300 rum will get tight around 65,000 psi and a 50 bmg around 55,000 psi. Larger the surface area, more contact area with the chamber making it more difficult for the mechanical cam in the receiver to break the fired case free from the chamber.
 
My 338 Edge will raise a circular bump where the ejector sits with softer brass at higher pressures. I have really only seen it with Nosler brass. Opening the bolt actual shears off part of the edge of the bump creating very fine hair like shavings. No issue with the case extracting from the chamber, but as the bolt first starts to rotate the raised bump gets rubbed. Rechambering a fired brass is tight because the bump is 0.001" to 0.002" tall and doesn't line back up with the extractor. A couple of passes of the case base across sand paper reveals and removes the bump. I just backed off on pressure with the softer brass. I can easily get 2900fps with 300SMK with H1000 and 30" barrel with other brass. My preferred load is 2825fps.
 
My 338 Edge will raise a circular bump where the ejector sits with softer brass at higher pressures. I have really only seen it with Nosler brass. Opening the bolt actual shears off part of the edge of the bump creating very fine hair like shavings. No issue with the case extracting from the chamber, but as the bolt first starts to rotate the raised bump gets rubbed. Rechambering a fired brass is tight because the bump is 0.001" to 0.002" tall and doesn't line back up with the extractor. A couple of passes of the case base across sand paper reveals and removes the bump. I just backed off on pressure with the softer brass. I can easily get 2900fps with 300SMK with H1000 and 30" barrel with other brass. My preferred load is 2825fps.
Having brass set back into the extractor ring is certainly an indication of pressures a bit higher then you should be at. Nosler brass is not that strong, on par with remington brass from what i have seen. As such, far overpriced for what you get. Still, if its all you can get….. fot to use it.

i do not mind seeing an ejector ring on the case head. Most brass will show a faint ring even factory ammo, especially on larger diameter cartridges. When it starts to shear off this bump though in my opinion pressures are to high as the brass is being permanently deformed to the point it flows into this recess hard enough that its elastic properties are not enough to let it stretch back out. Of said another, its elastic properties have been over powered by the force of the chamber pressure.

in a 30" barrel with conventional throat and h1000, i would expect to see 2800-2850 fps just as your seeing. I would also expect to see excessive pressure issues at 2900 fps!! Just as you were seeing.

i always prefferred Retumbo in the 338 Edge with the 300 gr bullet weights. Same velocity potential, higher load density and less ability to over pressure. Always found it less finicky with enviorn changes as well.

your preferred 2825 fps is pretty much exactly where i would expect it to be for top loads.

you mention no real sign of excessive pressure working the bolt….. this can greatly depend on the quality of the machining in the rifle but a quick story, had a customer that ordered one of my 257 STW rifles clear back in 2002-2003 or so. Built it on a new rem 700 that i fully blueprinted and did all the upgrades to. He was dreaming of the claimed 4000 fps velocity with the 100 gr bullet weights in a 28" barrel so we went with a lilja 10 twist fluted sendero contour barrel.

i did a load development and found that with the rem brass i was testing with, 3850 fps was about what i would call max but i also told him this is relatively soft brass and i am pretty conservative as i like longer brass life then 3-4 firings.

told him to watch for any of the well known pressure signs when developing a load.

several months later i get a call from him, rather upset. He had developed a great load and shot through the 100 rounds he had loaded up and had started to process the brass for the next loading and found that every single case had blown primer pockets, to the point he could insert a small steel punch through the case mouth and the instant it went through the flash hole, the primer would fall out effortlessly…. He was not impressed and asked how this could be possible with zero pressure signs, not even a faint ejector ring on the case heads….. none of the cases would hold a new primer….

this was when i asked him what velocity he was loaded to and he told me 3975 fps. I reminded him that i had gotten 3850 fps and warned him about going higher but he again said there were no pressure signs at all. Told him you were looking at the best pressure indicator we have, muzzle velocity. No magical way to develop a great deal of velocity. Velocity is simply a function of pressure and time a bullet is subjected to that pressure, longer time(longer barrel) more velocity.

he had read many posts from a guy named ferguson that was making these velocity claims and fell into the same trap many others had fallen into and after years of heated debated with me challenging fergusons velocity claims, he finally admitted he had no concerns at all if he only got one firing per case as long as he got those velocity numbers…….

anyway, the lack of obvious pressure signs working the bolt certainly does not mean your not working at pressures higher then the round was designed for as you well know and appropriately drop your velocity down to 2825 fps. Right where the Edge should be.
 
Having brass set back into the extractor ring is certainly an indication of pressures a bit higher then you should be at. Nosler brass is not that strong, on par with remington brass from what i have seen. As such, far overpriced for what you get. Still, if its all you can get….. fot to use it.

i do not mind seeing an ejector ring on the case head. Most brass will show a faint ring even factory ammo, especially on larger diameter cartridges. When it starts to shear off this bump though in my opinion pressures are to high as the brass is being permanently deformed to the point it flows into this recess hard enough that its elastic properties are not enough to let it stretch back out. Of said another, its elastic properties have been over powered by the force of the chamber pressure.

in a 30" barrel with conventional throat and h1000, i would expect to see 2800-2850 fps just as your seeing. I would also expect to see excessive pressure issues at 2900 fps!! Just as you were seeing.

i always prefferred Retumbo in the 338 Edge with the 300 gr bullet weights. Same velocity potential, higher load density and less ability to over pressure. Always found it less finicky with enviorn changes as well.

your preferred 2825 fps is pretty much exactly where i would expect it to be for top loads.

you mention no real sign of excessive pressure working the bolt….. this can greatly depend on the quality of the machining in the rifle but a quick story, had a customer that ordered one of my 257 STW rifles clear back in 2002-2003 or so. Built it on a new rem 700 that i fully blueprinted and did all the upgrades to. He was dreaming of the claimed 4000 fps velocity with the 100 gr bullet weights in a 28" barrel so we went with a lilja 10 twist fluted sendero contour barrel.

i did a load development and found that with the rem brass i was testing with, 3850 fps was about what i would call max but i also told him this is relatively soft brass and i am pretty conservative as i like longer brass life then 3-4 firings.

told him to watch for any of the well known pressure signs when developing a load.

several months later i get a call from him, rather upset. He had developed a great load and shot through the 100 rounds he had loaded up and had started to process the brass for the next loading and found that every single case had blown primer pockets, to the point he could insert a small steel punch through the case mouth and the instant it went through the flash hole, the primer would fall out effortlessly…. He was not impressed and asked how this could be possible with zero pressure signs, not even a faint ejector ring on the case heads….. none of the cases would hold a new primer….

this was when i asked him what velocity he was loaded to and he told me 3975 fps. I reminded him that i had gotten 3850 fps and warned him about going higher but he again said there were no pressure signs at all. Told him you were looking at the best pressure indicator we have, muzzle velocity. No magical way to develop a great deal of velocity. Velocity is simply a function of pressure and time a bullet is subjected to that pressure, longer time(longer barrel) more velocity.

he had read many posts from a guy named ferguson that was making these velocity claims and fell into the same trap many others had fallen into and after years of heated debated with me challenging fergusons velocity claims, he finally admitted he had no concerns at all if he only got one firing per case as long as he got those velocity numbers…….

anyway, the lack of obvious pressure signs working the bolt certainly does not mean your not working at pressures higher then the round was designed for as you well know and appropriately drop your velocity down to 2825 fps. Right where the Edge should be.
Just to be clear, I was seeing other signs of pressure at 2900fps with harder brass, but I wasn't getting a heavy bolt lift or heavy bolt closing on fired brass. Primers were getting flatter and the dimple from the firing pin was starting to crater. I had noticed the faint ejector marks, but failed to realized they were actually raised bumps. I knew from other folks that I should see pressure by 2900fps. I was just surprised that the brass was extruding into the ejector given the other signs of pressure seemed moderate. Generally, I have found loss of primer pockets, heavy bolt lift and extruding brass seems to show up after ignoring the initial signs of pressure. I don't usually go past the initial signs unless I am chasing a node up into pressure and I just want to find the high side of the node.

All in all, the pressure didn't stick the case in the chamber, rather the case was just too long when including the raised bump. Agreed, still over pressure for that particular brass and perhaps even over design pressure. I was relaying my experience as a reason for heavy bolt lift and a heavy bolt close on fired brass. I could resize and bump the sholder back 0.002 and still get a noticeable rub on bolt close. It was while measuring the shoulder bump that I noticed I was getting inconsistent readings depending on how the raised ejector bump lined up with the calipers.
 
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