I work with alot of different rifles and have solved my share of problem children issues. Question 1 what are the chamberings and how are they set up. Are they match tight chambers and necks or SAAMI chambers. Who put the parts together? If you have the best parts available and chamber the barrels wrong and end up with a crooked chamber you are screwed. There are alot of good gunsmiths on this sight and there are alot of gun) machinery machinists chambering and screwing tubes on actions that have no business doing so. I'm only suspicious because your components are topflite. What kind of stocks and how are they bedded. If you have a crooked chamber and or it's setting in a v block and you are getting 1 moa at 200 you are lucky. The real customs can be just as finicky as a factory rifle as to ammo, charge weight, bullet seating depth, brass quality, I've shot alot of Kreigers, Halls, Liljas, broughtons, brux, etc. and they all have a sweet spot. It helps alot to shoot some ladders over the chrono to help you find these, and yes sometimes the most consistent chrony numbers will not be the most accurate. Good Luck and don't quit looking for your solution. If your rifles are built correctly and your components and loading techniques are golden you will find your soultion. P.S. a 1/2 minute rifle will not shoot 1 Moa capable factory ammo in to 1/2 minute no matter how much you spend unless you are just pure lucky.
Custom Rifle accuracy expectations??
- Thread starter SBruce
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Sbruce, I agree w/ bughole. I feel bad for you that the rifles are having issues, more for the price point and time frame of builds.I had a problem on a build and it took until the next season to resolve and cost me a trophy mule deer . Since I used a backup, that was my #3. When I was working with my Norma I tried 285 Hornadys over the same load as 300 berger as a start point. The berger where holding 2-3 inch at 400, I shot some into 1''. The Hornadys where 4-6'', I think my rifle likes hot loads, but I spent alot of time and 150 + rnds finding what rifle liked. It seemed picky to me. Wish you luck on project
I had the same kind of issues with a custom build. I finally took it back to the smith and told him the problems I was having. It turns out he had "help" with my rifle from an apprentice and the bedding, recoil lug, barrel channel all had to be redone. When I took it to him the best it would do was three shots in1.5 in at 100 yds. When I got it back it shoots three shots into .345 at 200 all of the time. I say take it back . Most smiths want their products to work as advertised. I'm sure he will make it right. Good luck
Rifles are the average woman. They're all relatively finicky and there are good and bad ones from the same lot. I have a few factory rifles that shoot with some of the best custom built one's around and I have a couple custom built guns that shoot well but weren't worth the money put into them. And I've had more than a few factory guns that shot like garbage. My rule of thumb is is a hunting rifle doesn't shoot under one inch it goes on the sale rack and when it comes to a varmint gun it shoots under 1/2 moa or it hits the rack also.
The only gun I have that doesn't fit this criteria is a rifle that my wife bought for me on our 1st Cristmas. In the world of rifles my wife would be a 6mmBR Bench rest gun made by Bob White in NJ. I got lucky.
If it doesn't shoot send it to Bob White. He's been around forever and knows his stuff.
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The only gun I have that doesn't fit this criteria is a rifle that my wife bought for me on our 1st Cristmas. In the world of rifles my wife would be a 6mmBR Bench rest gun made by Bob White in NJ. I got lucky.
If it doesn't shoot send it to Bob White. He's been around forever and knows his stuff.
Shooters' Corner - The Worlds Largest Inventory of New and Used Benchrest Equipment
new shooter
Well-Known Member
The only way that i pay for a full custom is have the smith shot the rifle with the bullet i am going to shot and it better get 1/2'' moa he said it will get. That is why i went kirby allen building my 338 ax. His rifles do not leve his shop if they don,t meat his 1/2 moa. I don,t mind paying a little exter to make sure. When i picked up my rifle it was shooting 1/2 moa out to 1400 yds. I think no one should every get his rifle from his smith befour it has ben shot to make sure it shot the 1/2 moa with the bullet he told the smith he is going to used.
MOOSE39465
Well-Known Member
I would send the rifles to another smith and have him do an inspection.
Sully2
Well-Known Member
I have a box-stock Rem 700 here...22-250 caliber...6-18 Leupold on it that shoots 3 shot groups at 100 yds that you can cover with a dime. 30 grains of Varget with a 50 gr Hornady bullet.
I fully expect my 243 ( same rifle same sort of setup) to do as well...and also my Rem 700 in .260 with a Zeiss on it.
My single shot M700 in 6mmBR caliber...custom stock and 6.5-20 Zeiss on it had BETTER to at least that good.....
I fully expect my 243 ( same rifle same sort of setup) to do as well...and also my Rem 700 in .260 with a Zeiss on it.
My single shot M700 in 6mmBR caliber...custom stock and 6.5-20 Zeiss on it had BETTER to at least that good.....
I don't know that.
That's not what I've observed wearing out several 30 caliber barrels. They all shot Sierra 168's, 180's, 190's and 200's in 1:11 twist barrels very accurate form bolt guns; 1/2 MOA or better at 600. That's with Hart and Obermeyer barrels. The four 7.62 NATO Springfield Armory 1:12 twist arsenal barrels in Garands I wore out shot .3082" diameter Sierra 168's, 180's, and 190's as well as .3092" diameter Lapua 185's into 2/3 MOA at 600 yards. These barrels had bore diameters of .298" to .299" and groove diameters of .3076 to .3079.
I'm convinced that the reason most folks feel that a given barrel shoots best with only one bullet weight and type is they don't shoot enough rounds per test group. If you shoot two groups with the same load in a given barrel and they're different sizes; you need to shoot more shots per group if you want a decent level of confidence of how accurate they are all the time. A good measurement of anything's OK when the result's the same time after time.
captacademy
Well-Known Member
SBruce, did you ever get your rifle accuracy issues worked out?
SBruce
Well-Known Member
Thanks again for all the replies guys.
Sorry, I've been away for a while. Haven't even visited the site much in the last few months.
If it's calm tomorrow, (it is right now) I will be shooting it with the load that he said gave him a 2" group at 500 yds. I've got some other loads ready, and some factory fodder to shoot as well, just for comparison from before the return trip to the smith and now.
I'll post back what I find.
Sorry, I've been away for a while. Haven't even visited the site much in the last few months.
If it's calm tomorrow, (it is right now) I will be shooting it with the load that he said gave him a 2" group at 500 yds. I've got some other loads ready, and some factory fodder to shoot as well, just for comparison from before the return trip to the smith and now.
I'll post back what I find.
SBruce
Well-Known Member
Well, it was calm yesterday morning. I went and set up at 100 yds, then 300 yds. I fired 13-4 shot groups over the period of a couple hours. Long story short, only 1 of the 13 groups was under 1 moa, it was 1/2 moa at 300 yds, and I couldn't duplicate it again.
Average group size for the entire test was 1 to 1 1/2 MOA.
Shot 4 groups of the "recommended load" of 68 grns R-22 with 165 Nosler BT at the recommended OAL, along with a few groups of the same powder charge below the 165 Nosler Accubond, and also the 175 Berger VLD Hunting at the same .005" off the lands. I included one group each of two different 180 grn Factory ammo and the 165 Nosler BT ahead of 66 grns of H-4350.
It was calm, with any slight wind felt being directly behind me from 6:00. Shooting with surveyors ribbon tied to the target backer for a wind flag at the target. BR Harris bipod (locked with a pod lock) with rear bag on the bench.
All groups were more horizontal than vertical. Horizontal is where the problem is, and that's also where the problem was before sending it back. Seems the return trip helped some, but didn't turn this into the 1/2 minute shooter I was expecting. It's not placing the first two shots together and then throwing out the last two either, it's just plain big groups.
I guess I am down to treating this rifle like a factory rig and doing a complete load work up program. Perhaps this rifle just doesn't like me and I need to have another smith shoot and evaluate it, but there are 3 other custom builds I am currently working with that will shoot (on average) around 1/2 minute with random picked loads. They occasional give 1/4 minute performance or less, and occasionally 3/4 minute or more, but an honest 1/2 minute 3 shot group (at ranges from 100 to 500) is not uncommon at all for these other guns.......with no load work up done so far, just forming brass and burning up some old powder and bullet lots.
For broadside big game out to maybe 500 yds, this gun (as it currently shoots for me) will work, but so would a great number of factory rifles. MOA is nothing to be impressed with IMO. On the good side, it is "1/2 minute capable" .....................if 1 out of 13 counts, LoL!!
Average group size for the entire test was 1 to 1 1/2 MOA.
Shot 4 groups of the "recommended load" of 68 grns R-22 with 165 Nosler BT at the recommended OAL, along with a few groups of the same powder charge below the 165 Nosler Accubond, and also the 175 Berger VLD Hunting at the same .005" off the lands. I included one group each of two different 180 grn Factory ammo and the 165 Nosler BT ahead of 66 grns of H-4350.
It was calm, with any slight wind felt being directly behind me from 6:00. Shooting with surveyors ribbon tied to the target backer for a wind flag at the target. BR Harris bipod (locked with a pod lock) with rear bag on the bench.
All groups were more horizontal than vertical. Horizontal is where the problem is, and that's also where the problem was before sending it back. Seems the return trip helped some, but didn't turn this into the 1/2 minute shooter I was expecting. It's not placing the first two shots together and then throwing out the last two either, it's just plain big groups.
I guess I am down to treating this rifle like a factory rig and doing a complete load work up program. Perhaps this rifle just doesn't like me and I need to have another smith shoot and evaluate it, but there are 3 other custom builds I am currently working with that will shoot (on average) around 1/2 minute with random picked loads. They occasional give 1/4 minute performance or less, and occasionally 3/4 minute or more, but an honest 1/2 minute 3 shot group (at ranges from 100 to 500) is not uncommon at all for these other guns.......with no load work up done so far, just forming brass and burning up some old powder and bullet lots.
For broadside big game out to maybe 500 yds, this gun (as it currently shoots for me) will work, but so would a great number of factory rifles. MOA is nothing to be impressed with IMO. On the good side, it is "1/2 minute capable" .....................if 1 out of 13 counts, LoL!!
My rifles have commonly shot better with some bullets than others. The bullets themselves may not be of equal quality, or the rifle setup may prefer one bullet over another. When I'm trying to get a rifle to shoot well, bullets are the first thing I swap out, because they've had a greater influence on accuracy than any other component in the search for improved accuracy with my reloaded rounds.
I'm not a competitive shooter, and therefore haven't solely shot target bullets. Nor have I shot heavy contoured target barrels. The majority of my barrels have been in the #3 or #4 profile category. I know what my experiences have been with my equipment and setups. I can't speak for yours, Bart. Can't understand how you could presume to speak for mine or other members' rifles and equipment.
I was responding to the premise: " And as we aLL know every rifle is different and likes one bullet weight and type best." saying all of us know that. I don't know that, but it's a common belief in the rifle shooting world. J E Custom was speaking of my rifles as I am included in his "we all know" comment, but I'm not going to get on his case challenging him as how he could presume to speak for my rifles and equipment. The context of his comment didn't upset me. I'm not alone believing what I said.
The barrels I've worn out have been light, medium and heavy contoured; neither has been more accurate than the others. Barrel weight has nothing to do with accuracy. Best example of how one barrel will shoot several bullet weights, styles and shapes the same is Sierra Bullets' test barrels. They use one .308 Win. barrel to test all 30 caliber bullet weights up to 180 grains and one .300 Win. Mag. barrel to test heavier bullets. Naturally, match bullets will shoot more accurate than others. And bullet quality also plays a big part.
I will concede one point; diameter. A barrel's groove diameter and the bullet's diameter. If the bullet's diameter is smaller than the barrel's groove diameter, it will not shoot too accurate; some better than others. If this situation exists, then someone else with a tighter barrel will get better accuracy with the same bullet; that's assuming all other factors of the rifle, sights and shooter are the same.
For the most part, no two people will shoot the same rifle and ammo with equal accuracy. This, coupled with not shooting enough shots per test group to be statistically meaningful, is the main reason for most folks claiming every rifle is different and likes one bullet weight and type best.
