Competition Dies?

[goodgrouper]

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Could this be a problem like you have stated that the brass could have too much grip?

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Absolutely.
Regular dies squeeze the neck down as much as .020" then the expander ball brings the diameter back to bullet diameter size or slightly under. Then the brass "springs" down and creates a Vulcan death grip on your bullet thereby shaving copper of it and degrading it's accuracy.

I am currently running only .001" bullet grip on every gun I own except my 300 win mag which runs .002" grip, and my 6br which runs .0005". The 300 mag runs from a magazine so it needs to be a bit tighter, and the BR ammo is for benchrest only and I don't handle the ammo rough or I might push the bullet down into the case!
Generally speaking, the less grip you have on the bullet, the more accurate it should be. There are a few exceptions but unless I'm loading for a semi-auto I try to get the tension down to .003 or less.


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It is not much but enough to hurt the accuracy down range, and one things for sure it isn't helping my accuracy.

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Or your bullet's b.c.! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Kenster-Boy]

<font color="red"> WOW </font>

I just did the rolling the shells on the glass trick since I don't have a runout measurer. No wonder I can't hit my *** with one hand! I found 1/10 th of them to be reasonably strait! Ha I guess it is time to get a new set of dies and a runout gage. Maybe my rifle isn't a peice of junk after all?

 

[kraky2]

Goodgrouper and Fiftydriver- You guys are right and I was wrong---to a degree. MY point (and I made it badly) was that for the average guy with an average hunting rifle standard dies with some tuning will make excellent hunting ammo for any reasonable hunting situation. My attempt was to point out his efforts at accuracy gains would probably be better spent at working with different loads and seating depths, practice, working with a clean gun etc. YES, the benchrest crowd does use firarms of a different quality than the average hunting rifle and will benefit from ammo produced in match grade dies. And benchrest matches are won by tiny margins and are not shot in normal hunting conditions. BUT this also requires (Usually) that the benchrest shooter do alot of work with his brass sorting..... neck thickness etc. I sensed and possibly wrongly that the original poster wasn't a benchrest shooter. I kind of sensed that he was looking to improve his ability in the field.
My best "claim to fame" for reloading was a one shot kill made by a friend of mine which got him his grand slam of sheep. The range was lasered @ 683 yards. He was on a hunt in Mexico (very expensive). The gun he used was a custom made 270 wby by Rifles inc. It was topped with a scope that had a custom reticle by Premier Reticles with mildots for long range shooting. NOW the fancy part.....the bullet was a $.15 cent hornady 150 grain made on $20 hornady dies. When I make him ammo I always sort it by loaded runnout and mark bullets with less than .002" runnout with a green marker on the primer. I tell him to use these bullets for his hunts but he tells me his gun shoots all of them amazingly well. The point of all my rambling is dies are really the small part of a total accuracy equation for the average hunter and hunting rifle. There are far more "make or break" inputs that need to be ironed out before the dies eak out that last tiny bit of accuracy.

 

[kraky2]

7mm--You will have fun with the runnout gauge. Below I will copy how I "tune" my dies. You can start buying those fancy dies if you want but you can make fantastic ammo with the dies you already own. I can tell from your posts that you are "thirsting for reloading knowledge" and you will pick up alot in the forums and by possibly "buddying up" with an experienced reloader. This knowledge as you pick it up will get you to the higher levels of accuracy more efficiently than just investing in the best equipment. --Here's my comparison---Tiger Woods will kick the *** off most any golfer using a set of K-mart irons---but if you or I pick up the very best set of clubs we really won't see an improvement till we master the funamentals!!

Anyhow--here's the copy of my post on tuning dies!

My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

 

[Waltech Jim]

7mm mag man,

If you decide to research/buy dies you may want to consider these: Lee Collet Dies I would suggest talking to reloaders that have actually used them.

Jim

 

[ds]

7mmag man,

If you are getting a concentricity gauge something that I have noticed on two Sinclair concentricity gagues is that the ball bearings on which the case rides seem to wear easily, they are chrome plated but I guess the steel inside is soft, on the two that I have seen the contact surface of the ball bearings starts to take on a slightly flat angle. just something to note.

I use a concentricity gague, and batch ammo according to runout. I also know people who have gauges and use them more as paper weights, they have tried them and found no practical difference in their group sizes so dont bother. When they kick my *** in comps it`s hard to argue (tactical type comps).

Truth is getting the best concentricity you can is never going to hurt.

But also credit to Kraky 1, his last post also made good sense to me. I just find Redding dies work better for me and that is where I am happy. It is possible to take things a step further and have a chamber reamer made up to cut a chamber and then used on die blanks to give you a perfect die, sometimes with wildcats it may be the only way, but it aint cheap or O Neil dies for $180-240 each, (not 100% sure on that, the prices frightened me so I ran away).

David.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Srhaggerty,

Hope things are going well for you my friend!!

With a set of Redding Comp dies it is critical to maintain these dies.

This is very simple to do, they just need to be disassembled and cleaned up from time to time. Especially the neck sizing die. When using the neck sizing Comp die, eventually small brass filings can build up around the sizing bushing itself. If these chips make their way behind the bushing and its support the bushing will be out of axial alignment with the sleeve and you will see increased run out.

Other then that it is good to clean the body of the sleeve and the die to keep any dust or chips out from between these two componants. This will reduce wear which will loosen the fit of the die, also the sleeve should be oiled "lightly" on its outter surface so reduce friction and wear.

TO set these dies up properly, raise the ram in the press up to its highest point with the shell holder in place. Then screw in the Comp neck sizing die until the spring loaded sleeve is compressed totally, DON"T FORCE THINGS. At this point unscrew the die body in the press at least one full turn and lock the die in place.

Then to adjust the amount of neck sizing on the case, use the mircometer adjustment and raise it as far up as possible without removing this stem.

Insert a case and raise it to the top of the sizing stroke. Now turn down the mircometer adjustment until you feel the bushing contact the top of the case.

Lower the case and turn down the bushing adjustment 0.100" or so and size the case. Adjust as needed until you get the correct amount of neck sized for your needs.

The seater die is set up the same way.

I generally roll my ammo over an RCBS case master concentricity guage to check both neck run out after neck sizing and bullet run out after final bullet seating. This monitoring allows me to keep track of any run out problems which are 99% of the time a result of a brass chip.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Brent]

Kirby made a good post about the case being held in alignment while the neck is being sized by the bushing.

To add to that part I will say that a full length sizing die that is cut to accept bushings will be the very best at maintaining zero runout, with the dies using guide sleeves a close second. The Redding comp die with the sleeve has "some" slop due to the built in clearance between the sleeve and die body, so there is chance for misalignment where a full length sizing die is in perfect alignment and always will be. A full length bushing die is your best bet, and for a small fee Jim Carstensen will even modify your existing FL die to accept neck bushings.

The neck bushings are critical to control overworking of the brass, but also controling neck tension. The benifits are obvious and versatility is so much better. The only way to partially control these two factors without them in a standard die is to get rid of the expander and turn necks on your cases to get the desired neck tension without it... but this leaves the neck to expand even more when fired, looser if you will, not good but it's still worked less than using the expander ball and you know you have true necks, and even tension due to this. Still, it's only a half way solution, kind of.

Like JB said, buy a Wilson seater, get your neck tension down to .001-.0015 press fit and seat bullets by hand, or arbor press, either way. If you turn your necks to true them, use a bushing FL die and seat with a Wilson inline die, you will have runout less than .001 guranteed.... now your chamber being concentric with the bore, neck concentric with the body, etc., that is up in the air with a factory rig. Making perfect ammo will help with consistancy in any event. The concentricity gauge will tell you mostly what you already know but can be handy for many things. I'd buy it last though.

Use a good VLD chamfer tool. I use the K&amp;M and prefer it because it has the adjustable stop. Jackets are never shaved after using it.

I recommend the K&amp;M neck turner with reamer mandrel for uniform neck thickness too.

The RO I see after doing full prep doesn't even remotely approach .001, more like .0003 or less... 100% of the time.

 

[Kenster-Boy]

Would anybody mind recomending a couple of good books that sort of go over the stuff that we have discussed this far. I would like to know more about reloading and wouldn't want you guys to have to keep trying to explain stuff to me over and over.(I am a little confused right now but I will figue it out with time) So what are some the good books out there for reloading extreamly accurate rifle rounds. This topic has really intrigued me. I am 18 and have only had people teaching me how to reload that will not shoot anything past 200 yards or so. So being the black sheep of the family and wanting to go for better I have been going it alone and found this site extreamly informative as to what is nessesary to make long shots. I feel that my reloading process is the most important step in getting more out of my long range shooting right now.

I have spent a lot of time and money in my set up (not nearly as much money as a lot of you guys have but I am sort of limited as to what I have to work with) and have been doing a lot of practice in the last 2 years. Like I said previously I think that my reloading is the weakest link in my progress and I need to do better than putting primers, powder into the cases and jamming a bullet on top.

THANK YOU ALL for the help!

 

[Mysticplayer]

First investment, concentricity guage. You must know what you are up against and how your are progressing. Of course, the piece of glass is an excellent plan B. If the ammo is not obviously out of whack, shoot it. If the ammo shoots well, you are doing what needs to be done.

We buy all sorts of stuff and tune till we wear out our barrels because that is what turns our cranks. Many on this board shoot better at 300yds then most do at 100yds. But that takes a lot of time, effort, some money, and well built rifles. In a factory rifle, consistent sub MOA performance is really my goal. you can do better sometimes or just luck into a great shooter...sometimes.

I use the Lee collet neck die for as many rifles as I can get dies for. I have yet to find a rifle that did not respond to this style of sizing. Runout is very low. I say equal to the comp dies IF your chamber is cut straight.

It rarely creates problems but will not fix any either. These dies do take some force to size as you are forcing a collet to squeeze your brass against a mandrel. Best part is you can never oversize. If the brass is consistent, neck tension is superbly consistent from case to case.

I prefer a higher amount of neck tension. Whatever you decide just remember that the ammo has to survive getting from your loading bench into your chamber without being knocked out of alignment. I have had ammo with low neck tension go wonky from handling (hunting and such).

With straight ammo, the loading process will go much easier. Next stop is quality powders, accurate bullets, a well bedded action and free floated barrel, good solid bench with proper rests, clear and precise optics, good form in shooting, calm days and lots of practise.

Not trying to be mean but you need to be able to shoot small groups to get small groups. If your ammo is up to scratch and things aren't as good as you would want, make sure you are shooting as well as you expect your rifle. That will come with practise of course so don't despair.

There is lots of info on this board and we are always willing to share. Post your questions and I am sure you wil get answers. Or at least varied opinions...

Jerry

PS one more thing to check. Size a case and just seat a bullet in the neck. Chamber the cartridge. Extract and you should see where the lands have engraved on the bullet (put some jiffy marker on the bullet). If you cannot get the bullet to fully engage the lands before leaving the case neck, the odds of having a tack driver is slim to nil. 1 to 1.5 MOA at short range at best. Time to set back the chamber.

 

[kraky2]

If you are willing to spend a little money go on E-bay and type in the words sierra reloading video. I see a place selling the 2 tape video from David Tubb. This is an EXCELLENT video and covers much of what we've talked about.
I see a place selling it for $38 and maybe you can do a little more exploring and find it a little cheaper.
If you're like me this is the kind of thing to recomend to relatives for birthday presents etc!!!!
If money is a little tight send me an e-mail as I own these two tapes and could loan/send it to you for a little shipping$$$ It is an excellent tape--maybe you could split the cost with a reloading buddy??

 

[Kenster-Boy]

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PS one more thing to check. Size a case and just seat a bullet in the neck. Chamber the cartridge. Extract and you should see where the lands have engraved on the bullet (put some jiffy marker on the bullet). If you cannot get the bullet to fully engage the lands before leaving the case neck, the odds of having a tack driver is slim to nil. 1 to 1.5 MOA at short range at best. Time to set back the chamber.

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This is one of the first things that I did. I had consistent 1 inch groups at 100 yards up until about two weeks ago when I did just what you recomended and it brought it to about 3/4 inch groups. So that got me thinking that it made a difference the first time so maybe if I got the bullet truly straight it would bring it in a little tighter.

But for a factory savage 112 BVSS I think that it isn't too bad. Not to mention that I am not the best shot in the world. I am just trying to get as much accuracy out of my rifle/me combination as I can. My groups also seem to start to scatter at 200 yards so I am hoping that this takes care of some of it. I just ordered some berger 180 gr VLD's and some Sierra Match Kings and maybe this will help my 200 yard groups as well.

 

[goodgrouper]

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MY point (and I made it badly) was that for the average guy with an average hunting rifle standard dies with some tuning will make excellent hunting ammo for any reasonable hunting situation.

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Agreed. But I am kind of a weird duck when it comes to this. I literally can't stand shooting any bullet any time that isn't perfect or as close to perfect as I can make it whether it is for an elk, a chuck, or a match. I think Centre Punch also said something along these lines earlier and I have to agree. I don't want to just hit the elk, I want to hit him 3" down from the spine and centered on the shoulder blade in an imaginary 4" circle no matter where he is and for that, I need dang good ammo! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Aim small, miss small. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[älg]

GG, are you depriming with a different die or with the neck die at the same time of resizing? I understand you use no expander there.

I am using a Forster neck die for my 7rm and can´t get rid of a constant 0.002 neck runout...except for some lucky cases who make it tom 0,001. be sure my next dies for this and my new guns will be a redding comp set.