Case neck wall thickness??

[Alibiiv]

I am putting a .358 Winchester together, the build is running late so I thought that I would get a head start on a ladder loads. I read an article in Handloader magazine that had some very impressive pet loads using Ramshot TAK; however, the author stressed STARLINE brass. I started checking around and found some STARLINE brass on Brownell's so I bought 100 pieces. Today I figured that I would start prepping the brass to reload and develop some ladder loads. I annealed the brass, then I full length resized the brass with the expander ball out using Hornady One-shot, and then used a Sinclair mandrel die to get the neck dimension correct. I tried cleaning the primer pockets, however my large rifle primer pocket reamer never touched the primer pocket on any of the 100 pieces that I bought. This I found unusual, however left it to some good QC work of the manufacturer!!?? From this step I decided that I had some time to turn the necks on the brass. I use a FORSTER case neck turning tool along with my portable DeWalt drill. I usually will get .00025-.0005 thousandths variation. Perhaps there are better neck turning tools that will get better results than the Forster; however, this is what I have and it works for me. I strive to clean up the necks at .013 thousandths; however this was not cleaning up the necks. And...I wasn't happy with this and turned the cutter down until the necks started to clean up. So now I am down to .0125 wall thickness, and the case necks still are not cleaning up!! I measured the sections that did not clean up and found that these sections were a couple of tenths under the already turned .0125 wall thickness. I could turn the cutting tool in and clean up most of the cases, however then I am down to around a .012 thousandths wall thickness on the case neck. Again usually the Hornady brass that I use will clean up at .013-0125 thousandths, this isn't happening with this brass, and I am finding some of the case necks are cleaning up at the mouth of the case; however as the turning gets close to where the neck meets the shoulder the neck is then not cleaning up. It is sort of like the case neck was put on crooked. So after this long dissertation, my question is what case neck dimensions do you stop at when turning the case neck? What is the cut off point. I have a large amount of Hornady .308 Winchester I am thinking about necking up, I was hoping to keep the correct head stamp. I understand consistancy, consistancy, consistancy, however if I make everything consistent I am concerned that I will make junk. I have used STARLINE brass a few times in the past, never ran into this before. I have about $80 into the cost of the brass, and easily have 2-3 hours of prep work into the brass as well! I do not want to keep going if it is junk! I can call Brownells on Monday and I am sure they will make good on the brass. The thing is that .358 Winchester brass does not grow on trees locally. I did find some Quality Cartridge brass on Grafs at $2.50/piece. I haven't loaded any .358 Winchester in a very long time. Any input is appreciated.

 

[MagnumManiac]

The thinnest I have gone was .011", this resulted in inconsistent neck tension that never got stable, it fluctuated wildly and I gave up on that barrel due to this fact. I moved away from neck turn only chambers after this. I now choose my brass, measure neck thickness and design my chamber neck dimension using the .003" minimum clearance and what the brass cleans up at.
I avoid going thinner than .0125" and prefer .013"-.0135" as about perfect.

Cheers.

 

[leadcollector]

I make all my 7mm-08 out of .308/7.62x51mm in as large a batch as I can find. Don't really care about head stamps as I don't own a .308 rifle.

That being said .358 brass is pretty distinguishable and can't chamber in a .308 so I wouldn't worry at all. Make some.

As too the thin brass. Shoot them and see, it ain't gonna hurt nothing. Might just be bigger groups, worst case scenario.

 

[cohunt]

I've had necks as thin as .010" on factory brass ( can't remember what cartridge or brand but i think it was 223) --- i only "clean up" necks and usually see 12-13 thou after clean up--, that said, I think the thickest I've seen is around 14 maybe 15 thou.
I've only reloaded for saami chambers so far and thickness has never been a problem, I just clean them up for consistency --- when I first started reloading, I did not turn and was still getting great accuracy in my 22-250 I owned back then---- I don't think it must be done to achieve good accuracy--- i feel its part of the "consistency rat hole" I've created and gone down over the years

Which mandrel did you use? They make quite a few sizes --- what neck ID did you end up with?
Are you using a standard calipers or a ball/dial micrometer to measure neck thickness ? Std blade type calipers can sometimes not read thickness correctly on necks

 

[Seabeeken]

When at all possible, I recommend fireforming the brass first to be sure it is fully expanded to the chamber fully to prevent turning over low spots. Then I neck size and turn. My match ammo for my factory gun is turned only enough to clean the necks to be consistent. My other match rifle has a custom neck which requires brass turned to .010 thick to allow for .003 neck expansion/bullet release and this works great.
The K&M neck turner is the best I've used and works great. Starline brass is good brass but I do think it needs to be FF first to get good neck turn results. YMMV

 

[Mikecr]

I think you should not have FL sized before neck turning, and that Brownells owes you nothing.
Your necks look belled out at the mouths from a bunch of FL sizing, which explains cutting more near mouths..

Normally, your best neck fitting to a turning mandrel is with NEW/UNMOLESTED necks that have only been expanded with the turning system expander mandrel.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

I've turned necks for years and it is a royal PITA. Now, I only buy high quality brass (Lapua, Alpha, Peterson) and have my smith cut "no turn" necks in all of my custom rifles. I can regularly get under 1/2 moa in my hunting rifles and better than 1/4 moa in my heavy 6mmBR without turning any necks.

 

[FEENIX]

When at all possible, I recommend fireforming the brass first to be sure it is fully expanded to the chamber fully to prevent turning over low spots.

This! Honestly, I have not done any neck turning for quite some time now.

 

[Alibiiv]

The thinnest I have gone was .011", this resulted in inconsistent neck tension that never got stable, it fluctuated wildly and I gave up on that barrel due to this fact. I moved away from neck turn only chambers after this. I now choose my brass, measure neck thickness and design my chamber neck dimension using the .003" minimum clearance and what the brass cleans up at.
I avoid going thinner than .0125" and prefer .013"-.0135" as about perfect.

Cheers.

Thank you for the reply. This is what I usually will do, and usually I will end up with .013-.0135". I am going to send these back, cut my losses and go from there. I am not certain if I got a batch of seconds or what I have here. I am pretty disappointed with the quality of the brass. I also have not tried the primer pocket tension either. This is the first batch of brass that I have ever encountered, including Peterson, where the primer pocket reamer did not remove some brass or at least touch the inside diameter of the primer pocket.

 

[Alibiiv]

I make all my 7mm-08 out of .308/7.62x51mm in as large a batch as I can find. Don't really care about head stamps as I don't own a .308 rifle.

That being said .358 brass is pretty distinguishable and can't chamber in a .308 so I wouldn't worry at all. Make some.

As too the thin brass. Shoot them and see, it ain't gonna hurt nothing. Might just be bigger groups, worst case scenario.

I was talking with my son about the issue I am having with this brass. He too recommended making some brass out of .308 Winchester brass. We have at least 300-400 pieces of Federal Gold Medal Match once fired brass. The plan is to start up the annealer, anneal the brass and then expand the necks with the .35 caliber mandrel. I have made 35 Whelens from 30-06 brass in the past without any issues using this process.

 

[Alibiiv]

I make all my 7mm-08 out of .308/7.62x51mm in as large a batch as I can find. Don't really care about head stamps as I don't own a .308 rifle.

That being said .358 brass is pretty distinguishable and can't chamber in a .308 so I wouldn't worry at all. Make some.

As too the thin brass. Shoot them and see, it ain't gonna hurt nothing. Might just be bigger groups, worst case scenario.

Yes that is the plan, see reply #10. We have a 300-400 pieces of Federal Gold Medal Match brass. I really do not need a head stamp to distinguish between a .308 and a .358.

 

[Alibiiv]

I think you should not have FL sized before neck turning, and that Brownells owes you nothing.
Your necks look belled out at the mouths from a bunch of FL sizing, which explains cutting more near mouths..

Normally, your best neck fitting to a turning mandrel is with NEW/UNMOLESTED necks that have only been expanded with the turning system expander mandrel.

This is exactly what I did do. I annealed the brass, then I full length sized the brass without the expander plug and then I used a Sinclair mandrel die.

 

[Alibiiv]

I've had necks as thin as .010" on factory brass ( can't remember what cartridge or brand but i think it was 223) --- i only "clean up" necks and usually see 12-13 thou after clean up--, that said, I think the thickest I've seen is around 14 maybe 15 thou.
I've only reloaded for saami chambers so far and thickness has never been a problem, I just clean them up for consistency --- when I first started reloading, I did not turn and was still getting great accuracy in my 22-250 I owned back then---- I don't think it must be done to achieve good accuracy--- i feel its part of the "consistency rat hole" I've created and gone down over the years

Which mandrel did you use? They make quite a few sizes --- what neck ID did you end up with?
Are you using a standard calipers or a ball/dial micrometer to measure neck thickness ? Std blade type calipers can sometimes not read thickness correctly on necks

I used a .357 thousandths mandrel, I did not measure the neck ID, and I used a set of ball micrometers to measure the wall thickness, and I did check the micrometer for calibration before I did the measurements.

 

[Alibiiv]

When at all possible, I recommend fireforming the brass first to be sure it is fully expanded to the chamber fully to prevent turning over low spots. Then I neck size and turn. My match ammo for my factory gun is turned only enough to clean the necks to be consistent. My other match rifle has a custom neck which requires brass turned to .010 thick to allow for .003 neck expansion/bullet release and this works great.
The K&M neck turner is the best I've used and works great. Starline brass is good brass but I do think it needs to be FF first to get good neck turn results. YMMV

I totally agree with fire forming the brass before turning the necks. The problem with this is that I do not have the rifle yet. And...yes I too have had good luck using Starline brass in the past, I could have gotten a bad batch of brass????? I am starting to think this rifle/build is going to be the rifle from hell. Presently I am waiting for the barrel to get made from XCaliber. I ordered the barrel March 16th, and spent an extra $100 for the barrel to get the process "expedited"! I was told that the barrel may take around 8 weeks to get done. I called a couple of weeks ago to ask about where my barrel stood in the production process because time is running short and I am getting nervous. The salesman there said he would check and get back to me. Well.....he got back to me, only to tell me that the barrel did not pass quality control due to a lapping issue and it had to be started all over again. The salesman was good, he said that they would give me a total refund or continue on with making the barrel because the barrel was still in the cue and being made. At this point it is like, "What am I going to do?? So I kept going. I still would like to take this rifle on my next hunt, I have 56 days until we go on the hunt as of today's date (6/29) and then there is the 2-3 weeks at the gunsmith, then I have to finish with a bedding job. The bedding is ready to go, but...I need the rifle before I can finish that.