Case head separation.

[5gauss]

Use fireformed case to just set the shoulder back tiny increments at a time so it wilkl just chamber....go from there with lighter load and work back up. Not all chambers are equal.......

 

[Pointman]

Had my 1st head separation on 1 piece of Hornaday 338 LM. Disappointing to say the least, only 3 reloads on that batch - none at max. My ADG 338 LM brass are also on the 4th load with no head issues. all are sized so they chamber with minimum "bolt force". I have loaded my 25-06 brass. old LC military surplus 30-06 WW II brass more than10 times before retiring them after split necks and 2 annealing cycles. Hornaday makes great projectiles and perhaps ammunition but the brass just doesn't stand up INMO.

 

[Bigeclipse]

did anyone not see his original post about even factory loads leaving ejector marks? Couldn't this point to an issue with his chamber?!?

 

[Mram10us]

I thought he got the separations once it was reloaded the first time. Am I mistaken?

 

[dennisinaz]

Bottoming the shell holder is not going to fix dirty brass, amount of lube or hardness discrepancies. Common sense says don't put dirty brass in your die. Too much lube will dent shoulders either way. Hardness variation will give you inconsistent headspace either way. Anneal your brass if this is the issue. Not touching the shell holder is removing a variable of applied pressure. My brass come out of my dies with less than a .001 tolerance because of brass prep. I use clean brass. I use the propped amount of die wax. I anneal my brass and they stay up in the die for 5 seconds. I've been around precision reloading for over 30 years. I have built precision rifles professionally for 30 yrs. So basically yes you can have your die touch the shell holder if that's where it needs to be to get correct setback. In most cases your die touching the shell holder is giving you too much setback so it needs backed off. Common sense.
Shep

You're missing the point. Brass is NOT perfect. Again, I refer you to seating bullets. I have had brass that was BRAND new out of the blue box. A few, a very few. seated hard and a few, seated light. I have seen the same thing with annealed and cleaned brass. If the brass is just hanging out there, you don't know for sure where it is stopping. If it cams over, you know where it's stopping. You use competition shell holders to keep from setting the should back too much.

I have also been around precision loading for 30+ years and I also build precision rifles. I have spent enough time with Mic to know that, although he has his quirks, he is a very bright dude and a consummate experimenter. If he tells me this is a big deal, I have to believe he has empirically proven it.

As far as the rifle in question here, a separated case is almost always a result of excessive headspace. Why this rifle/ ammo combo has it is the hundred dollar question. Backing the die off will allow him to change his setback but is a shortcut for the proper method.

 

[Mram10us]

You're missing the point. Brass is NOT perfect. Again, I refer you to seating bullets. I have had brass that was BRAND new out of the blue box. A few, a very few. seated hard and a few, seated light. I have seen the same thing with annealed and cleaned brass. If the brass is just hanging out there, you don't know for sure where it is stopping. If it cams over, you know where it's stopping. You use competition shell holders to keep from setting the should back too much.

I have also been around precision loading for 30+ years and I also build precision rifles. I have spent enough time with Mic to know that, although he has his quirks, he is a very bright dude and a consummate experimenter. If he tells me this is a big deal, I have to believe he has empirically proven it.

As far as the rifle in question here, a separated case is almost always a result of excessive headspace. Why this rifle/ ammo combo has it is the hundred dollar question. Backing the die off will allow him to change his setback but is a shortcut for the proper method.

Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but I have seen no data to back the notion that the shell holder needs to touch the die, while I posted data showing it makes no difference based on the slop from boltface to chamber. I would honestly like to see real data not just "I think/feel" or "I have always done this". Thank you

 

[25WSM]

With my brass just hanging out there it will stop at the shoulder of the die and the bottom of my shell holder. It can't go farther or shorter. It's physics. All brand new brass out of the box has inconsistent neck tension. And sizing a piece of brass has nothing to do with what it feels like to put a bullet in a neck. I'm done with this nonsense. Mram knows what he's talking about. And so do all the benchrest hall of fame guys I know and hang out with. I'm going to take the easy route here. I'm going to explain to Nancy Pelosi why you have to read the bill before you pass the bill.
Shep

 

[Mram10us]

You're missing the point. Brass is NOT perfect. Again, I refer you to seating bullets. I have had brass that was BRAND new out of the blue box. A few, a very few. seated hard and a few, seated light. I have seen the same thing with annealed and cleaned brass. If the brass is just hanging out there, you don't know for sure where it is stopping. If it cams over, you know where it's stopping. You use competition shell holders to keep from setting the should back too much.

I have also been around precision loading for 30+ years and I also build precision rifles. I have spent enough time with Mic to know that, although he has his quirks, he is a very bright dude and a consummate experimenter. If he tells me this is a big deal, I have to believe he has empirically proven it.

As far as the rifle in question here, a separated case is almost always a result of excessive headspace. Why this rifle/ ammo combo has it is the hundred dollar question. Backing the die off will allow him to change his setback but is a shortcut for the proper method.

Comments like your last sentence are the type of comments that turn it from a debate into something else. It is FAR from a shortcut. Until you provide data, like I and 25 have done, I'll leave it alone. I hope people that are new to this can see the data and basic mechanical physics.

 

[25WSM]

http://www.mssblog.com/2016/04/14/cam-over-dont-do-it-just-dont/
This pretty much sums it up.
Shep

 

[LoneTraveler]

I have not seen a problem like this since a friend of mine had a Shultz and Larson in 7 MM Sharp and Hart, Many moons ago. Shoot a factory shell, Then 1 reload was all that would be dependable out of the brass. He carried a case extractor when shooting or hunting with that rifle.
What make action is this rifle built on?

You say it is a custom rifle, Was the action blue printed? Check the bolt handle slot. Is the bolt handle holding the rifle in battery and not the bolt lugs? When fired could the bolt be compressing and the action stretching till the bolt lugs come tight against receiver lugs. This could be putting an unknown equation in the problem you can not figure in your brass sizing.

Just thinking out of the box at 2:30 am.

 

[Bob Wright]

(I re-read every single post, watched all the vids and read all the links, so...)
While Grizz is out procuring new brass and headspace gauges, the train left the tracks on this thread.
What I learned here is shell holder touching the die is ok if you properly use Redding's competition shell holders to control headspace. I don't do it this way, but I like it. A bit more$ in my reloading operation but it is slick!
The other way, which is what my die instructions says, (I actually read instructions, gasp!) Is to run your die down to the shell holder and back it off a turn away from the shell holder. Then without the size button, I slowly adjust the die down until I get a .002 bump on the fire formed case and it went from a light drag on the bolt to a beautiful easy drop of the bolt handle.
So Shep is right, dennisinaz is right, Mick McPherson is right and yet we just end up with the correct headspace if we just measure correctly, set the press up for a certain cartridge and chamber and not destroy our press and dies while in the process.
Everyone has a way of doing it; the proof is your own best results.
Hope you got your brass Grizz and are measuring away. You'll have an answer soon, hopefully.

 

[Mram10us]

Mr Wright,
The problems come in with statements like "shortcut for the proper method" and "you must have cam over". I don't care how you do it if it works. I care when you say without any empirical data that someone else is wrong and your way is the only way. People that don't know this stuff trust these guys and carry on the wrong ideas. Been dealing with that mentality by people building rifles (cant use a 3 jaw, must recut action threads, must time bolt, 11 deg crown, etc)

 

[DSheetz]

And now we know why the saying that there is more then one way to skin a cat . If we didn't experiment and find different ways to do something we wouldn't advance any farther . As people we all have an opinion and have been exposed to different aspects of things being done by different people in our lives . For me I would have to look at and try the action on this rifle for my self then do some measuring of things to know for sure what was going on but we can know from past experiences by our selves and others what caused this to happen in different rifles and thus make an educated guess as to what happened in this case and that is why I read on this site so that I can learn faster by others experiences and thus also save myself time , frustration and money .

 

[Bob Wright]

Like I told another poster on this thread in an I.M., I wish I had a week to sit down with every member on this forum and see your loading setup, look at your rifles, targets, hear the competition stories and pictures of your hunts.
What a richer in knowledge guy I would be!