Bushing Dies How To?

[KJW]

First thing, you should have great results with that 212 eld. I just got done building my 300wm load with them and h1000. I don't have super fast speed but it hammers out to 800 yds.
The case and bullet runout thing has bounced around in my tiny brain for awhile. I loaded my 300 rounds with the everyday green box rcbs dies. I got a hold of a concentricity gauge to check runout out of curiosity. I had bullet run out from 4 to 7 thou. I recently purchased a set of Forster dies and am curious if and where I will see any improvement. I don't think i shoot good enough to tell but I know upgrading die quality won't hurt. And it will help me sleep better at night.
I'm starting to feel barrel quality is more important, as I have a 6.5/284 with bullet runout pushing 10 thou and it'll run 1/2 MOA at 800 yds.

 

[338 dude]

I perform a similar function, however, I do use my bushings even on unturned brass (I have a neck turning kit but want to purchase the 21st century neck turning lathe.)

Wouldn't even a bushing style die without the bushing inserted still bump the shoulder? Or would you have to specifically purchase a FL sizing die (non bushing style)

Reason i ask is that ALL of my dies are bushing style and I have the mandrels for my sinclair die.

You would need a shoulder bump die or a body die to push the shoulder unless it is a full bushing die

 

[Double Dropper]

My mind is blown lol a lot to digest,

 

[Braunschweiger]

You would need a shoulder bump die or a body die to push the shoulder unless it is a full bushing die

Yes, I have never once bought a "Neck only" die. All of my dies are FL or FL with bushing. My original rhetorical question was "a FL bushing type die should STILL BUMP THE SHOULDER even without the bushing."

 

[bigedp51]

I have seen Remington .223 cases with .009 neck thickness variations and a bushing die would not help vs a standard full length die.

With average Remchester cases and a off the shelf factory rifle I see no advantage in using a bushing die. And in the video I posted by the 6.5 Guys they got less neck runout with a non-bushing Forster full length die.

In the video in post #26 by Panhandle Precision he is using Lapua brass with very uniform case neck thickness. He also has a neck thickness gauge to check the uniformity and culls cases with excessive thickness variations, and he also has custom chambered rifles.

So again bushing dies work best with custom chambered tight neck chambers with very uniform necks or neck turned brass. And the Redding bushing FAQ tells you to use the expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more.

And my point being much of what benchrest shooters do to their cases and the dies they use are no real improvement or help with a off the shelf factory rifles.

And there is a reason why so many reloaders use a Lee collet die and a body die rather than use a bushing die. Or you can have a Forster dies neck honed (if needed) to your desired diameter and only size the case once.

Below is a Redding bushing die, now look at the clearance between the die body and the bushing. This clearance will allow the bushing to move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck. And with uniform case neck thickness that doesn't expand over .004 when fired a bushing die works well.

"BUT" a bushing die does not produce concentric cases with brass that is not uniform and fired in a factory chamber that allows the neck to expand over .004. And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies.

So again the results from a bushing die depends on the quality of your cases and how much the neck expands when fired. And I get very concentric cases using Forster full length dies that are much cheaper and produce less neck runout than a Redding bushing die.

Below with a Forster full length die the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the high mounted floating expander does not pull your necks off center and induce neck runout.

Bottom line, in the Panhandle Precision video he has custom rifles with a tight snug chambers. And he has a neck thickness gauge to sort out cases that do not have uniform necks. So what type rifle do you have, do you have a neck thickness gauge and a runout gauge and all the equipment he has in his videos.

So what type rifle do you have, what brand brass are you using and how many gauges do you have. So remember you can not make a silk purse from a sows ear. And a bushing die will not change your off the shelf factory rifle into a benchrest rifle.

 

[sbruni]

They are also great when it comes to minimal run- out. Good luck!

I'll 2nd that

 

[bigedp51]

I wonder why the 6.5 Guys video and the Whidden video below tell you they get less runout with a non-bushing full length die?



The Honed-Neck FL Sizing Die Option — Alternative to Bushings
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...fl-sizing-die-option-alternative-to-bushings/

 

[Double Dropper]

Custom aftermarket barrel, 26" but standard throat and dimensions on the chamber, its a hunting rifle, ADG brass, wow a lot of input and advice, thanks to all.

 

[bigedp51]

Custom aftermarket barrel, 26" but standard throat and dimensions on the chamber, its a hunting rifle, ADG brass, wow a lot of input and advice, thanks to all.

Measure how much your case necks expand when fired, it is how much the neck needs to be reduced in diameter and the neck thickness uniformity that will induce neck runout with a bushing die.

So deciding on a bushing die depends on your chambers neck diameter and the uniformity of your case necks.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/142-concentricity-a-bushing-dies
Concentricity & Bushing Dies
"From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse."

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity Problems
a.k.a Neck Runout With Bottleneck Cases

The concentricity, or neck runout, of loaded cartridges is an important consideration for reloaders and especially the varmint or target shooter.
There are many factors that can cause or contribute to neck runout during the reloading process and many reloaders who have not dealt with the problem before quickly blame the sizing or seating die.

Excessive difficulty while resizing can indicate any of the following: Poor choice of case lube, failing to clean the die and/or brass, faulty polish inside die, chamber large or at maximum S.A.A.M.I. spec resulting in excessive brass resizing. A large neck diameter in the chamber combined with brass that is thin or excessively turned can cause crooked necks in a hurry. The more brass has to be moved the more its residual memory takes over.

An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.

My comments to the above Redding FAQs, with a large SAAMI factory chamber and average Remchester brass, there is nothing to be gained by using a bushing die. Conversely with a tight snug chamber where the neck does not expand that much and using quality Lapua brass a bushing die will work very well.

I tested the .223 dies pictured below in a AR15 and a Savage .223 bolt action rifles and the Forster full length benchrest die produced cases with less neck runout than all the other dies pictured. And the neck size only dies produced the most neck runout. And I believe this is because the case body is not fully supported inside a neck sizing die.

Below a Redding .243 full length die with a modified Forster expander and spindle assembly installed. This reduced the neck runout verses the much longer and lower mounted Redding expander.

 

[Davew223]

*Rule 4 Violation* LOL that's alot to chew on! I was not planning on turning the necks, I do want sufficient tension on the neck, this a hunting rifle first and foremost. I do not shoot competitions, I just want the most balanced hunting ammunition I can load. ADG brass, looking at using 212 ELD-X or Berger 215 Bullets, I have Rl-25, IMR 8133 and Retumbo on hand, both Fed 215GM and CCI 250 primers to start......and here we are.

It's easy for those of us that have gone off the deep end loading to go off the deep end posting about loading. Before going crazy, load up some rounds with standard full length dies (you want to full length size new brass the first time anyway) and see what kind of groups you can get. You will probably find that the rifle shoots great and you don't need to go any further. As a side note, The ELD-X will probably like to be seated almost touching or even touching the lands, at least the A-Max did, but most Bergers seem to like a few thousandths jump for best accuracy.

 

[Don Titus]

I have seen Remington .223 cases with .009 neck thickness variations and a bushing die would not help vs a standard full length die.

With average Remchester cases and a off the shelf factory rifle I see no advantage in using a bushing die. And in the video I posted by the 6.5 Guys they got less neck runout with a non-bushing Forster full length die.

In the video in post #26 by Panhandle Precision he is using Lapua brass with very uniform case neck thickness. He also has a neck thickness gauge to check the uniformity and culls cases with excessive thickness variations, and he also has custom chambered rifles.

So again bushing dies work best with custom chambered tight neck chambers with very uniform necks or neck turned brass. And the Redding bushing FAQ tells you to use the expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more.

And my point being much of what benchrest shooters do to their cases and the dies they use are no real improvement or help with a off the shelf factory rifles.

And there is a reason why so many reloaders use a Lee collet die and a body die rather than use a bushing die. Or you can have a Forster dies neck honed (if needed) to your desired diameter and only size the case once.

Below is a Redding bushing die, now look at the clearance between the die body and the bushing. This clearance will allow the bushing to move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck. And with uniform case neck thickness that doesn't expand over .004 when fired a bushing die works well.

"BUT" a bushing die does not produce concentric cases with brass that is not uniform and fired in a factory chamber that allows the neck to expand over .004. And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies.

So again the results from a bushing die depends on the quality of your cases and how much the neck expands when fired. And I get very concentric cases using Forster full length dies that are much cheaper and produce less neck runout than a Redding bushing die.

Below with a Forster full length die the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the high mounted floating expander does not pull your necks off center and induce neck runout.

Bottom line, in the Panhandle Precision video he has custom rifles with a tight snug chambers. And he has a neck thickness gauge to sort out cases that do not have uniform necks. So what type rifle do you have, do you have a neck thickness gauge and a runout gauge and all the equipment he has in his videos.

So what type rifle do you have, what brand brass are you using and how many gauges do you have. So remember you can not make a silk purse from a sows ear. And a bushing die will not change your off the shelf factory rifle into a benchrest rifle.

Glad to have your opinion on this...I ordered my Forester FL sizing die (honed .004") for my 300 WM several days ago...actually it's on backorder...hope I get it in time to run some Nosler brass through it before heading to CO for elk in about 7 weeks...

 

[misterc01]

I measure neck thickness, and sort into lots with same thickness. I turn any that are not the same thought the case. I then use the correct size bushing to get the same neck tension on all of them. I shoot most long range, and it makes a difference with consistent, tighter groups. BTW - I use a Sinclair neck turning system. You do not turn necks often, and then only once, and is not really time consuming, and less expensive than a dedicated lathe. Plus I have the mandrels if I need to do any neck work.

 

[tnek13]

Alternate suggestion, get a Sinclair concentricity gauge, a Sinclair expander die with an expander to give you the neck tension you desire, a 300 Win Mag bump gauge with extra long body, a Harvey Deprimer tool, a digital caliper ( they are easier to read) , and a Forster Ultimate Micrometer Seater Die.


Remove the expander from your RCBS sizing die , use the deprimer tool to deprive your fired brass, set the sizing die to bump the shoulder back to .001 or .002 from your fired case, use the expander die as a separate operation to open up the neck, prime the case, charge the case, seat with the Forster die, run the round on the concentricity die, and smile at the end result.


Measure everything and you will probably find that the RCBS die gives you an excellent concentric case. If you decide to go the bushing die route, you will still need the measuring tool to tell if your result is what you are after. I went the bushing die route on several calibers I load for and they did not give me the result that I wanted (.002 or better run out).


Good luck, and have fun.

 

[Pdyson]

I used bushing dies for both my hunting and long range target guns and never thought about using a collet die until I picked up a Browning hells canyon LR IN 300winMag, off gunbroker. I had a bunch of once fired Remington brass but all I could find to buy locally was a set of Lee dies. I was impressed with the concentricity of my loaded rounds and they work the brass less than any dies I've ever seen. They are cheap and feel kinda cheesy but they make super concentric accurate ammo. I bought two more collet neck sizers one for my 6CM and another for my 6.5CM chassis rifle.