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Burn rate for smokeless propellants - Research results wanted

Dangermouse

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Joined
Jan 26, 2014
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12
Location
Georgia
Several years ago a link to a Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC) publicly available pdf file was posted in another thread on this forum. That link is:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p004451.pdf

However, since then, DTIC has revamped its web interface and papers now have an "accession number", which usually begins with "ADA".

I would like to read this paper, which characterizes smokeless propellant burn rates in terms of temperature sensitivity. It is reported to contain some counterintuitive information about burn rates not found in the general marketing/sporting literature. In other words, it is useful science.

If anyone has a copy of this paper, or knows the current accession number, and can provide it to this thread, it is much appreciated.

Thanks.

Dangermouse
 
Several years ago a link to a Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC) publicly available pdf file was posted in another thread on this forum. That link is:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p004451.pdf

However, since then, DTIC has revamped its web interface and papers now have an "accession number", which usually begins with "ADA".

I would like to read this paper, which characterizes smokeless propellant burn rates in terms of temperature sensitivity. It is reported to contain some counterintuitive information about burn rates not found in the general marketing/sporting literature. In other words, it is useful science.

If anyone has a copy of this paper, or knows the current accession number, and can provide it to this thread, it is much appreciated.

Thanks.

Dangermouse
Is this what you're looking for?
 

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Is this what you're looking for?
No. That is the opposite of what I seek. There are butt loads of marketing graphics, at least one in every reloading handbook, that resemble your post. The publication I am looking for is systematic research on the temperature sensitivity of certain smokeless powders used in small arms ammunition.

I am looking for a scientific paper available on the DTIC website, but which now (probably) has a new number. What that means is the p004451.pdf reference in the original posted paper link no longer links to the paper. i seek the new accession number --the reference the USG uses to identify/index every publication of the DTIC website -- that identifes the same paper, but with its new number, OR

if any reader of this site has a copy of that paper, please let me know if it can be posted somewhere (the cloud), to this forum, or emailed directly.

Thank you.
 
Dear Members, I realize I have made the same mistake others have been called out for in my original posted request above. I have not supplied sufficient information to narrow the search for the information I seek, so I will attempt now to rectify that. I am going to do it by reposting (parts) of the dated posts to which I referred above, so as to fine tune the discussion. If the scientific research paper I seek can be located, we can all learn something.

First, additional background. While I appreciate the posting of relative burn rate charts, they are just that: relative. At one temperature and pressure, the charts are indicative of how fast one smokeless powder burns when compared to another smokeless powder. For example, Reloder 22 burns slower than Reloder 7. No one disputes that.

Since such charts are available practically anywhere, at least one in every reloading manual, that is not really useful information. What will be useful is to understand, mathematically, how the burn rate of one brand/lot of powder changes as the temperature changes. To be precise, one can ask "how does the burn rate change for BL-C(2) when the ambient air temperature changes from 0 degrees fahrenheit to 100 degrees fahrenheit when using a .308 cartridge with a 165 grain Nosler Accubond bullet in a 24 inch barrel while holding humidity and elevation constant?

This scientific research has been conducted and published. Yes, I understand I may not be able to reproduce the exact conditions discussed in the publication. It is the findings that are of interest. For completeness, I will embed some of the original threads on this topic that led me to ask for the specific paper (previously) posted on the Defense Technical Information Center public website.

The original post, from March 17, 2016 was titled: "H4895 Temp Sensitivity". It was posted by an Eastern Oregonastanian whose handle is "Roop". The OP's question was: "Does anyone have any experience with the temperature stability of H4895?". This can be located here: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/h4895-temp-sensitivity.168784/#post-1182868

You will notice that there is no reference to relative burn rates in the original post.

A short time later, on the same day, member (handle) 918v replied as follows:

Here is some real deep thinking:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p004451.pdf
This post elevated my blood pressure a little. Perhaps this is something systematic?

In another thread "Retumbo and Temps" I find this, posted by member Darkker on August 28, 2016:

"...apparently he hasn't looked at any of the work done by the Naval Warfare Testing Center in many decades. Or that 95+-some percentage of all American armed forces ammo is ball powder....

If you want science, and not some schmoe who thinks there is a difference between Bl-c(2) and H335, read Dr. Denton Bramwell's testing. He used to write for the note defunct Varmint Hunter magazine, but she of his articles on temp are still up at RSI. But yourself a Pressure Trace while your there and learn that no, no you can't "read signs" of pressure in brass."

See: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/retumbo-and-temps.175048/#post-1227391
Here we are closing in on systematic research. The reference quoted above for the Naval Warfare Testing Center is what drove me into the Defense Technical Information Service portal. I have been unable to find any NSWC published research in there on burn rates and how they change in smokeless small arms powders as the temperature changes.

I have yet to scour the web for Dr. Denton Braswell. Back in the 1990s I was a subscriber to VH magazine. I don't have those issues to refer to now. I also do not recognize the abbreviation "RSI" in this context. I have discovered the papers posted from the DTIC site from member Darryle. Thank you for those. But I still seek the systematic research, especially anything on this subject from the Naval Surface Warfare Center.

I hope this update clarifies what I'm looking for. If I, or one of you can find it, I believe we will all benefit.

Yours;

-mouse
 
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Found it! Some (one result) of Denton Bramwell's systematic research can be found here:

https://www.firearmstalk.com/attachments/brumwell-powder-temp-exp1-pdf.158627/

Which is enlightening, even though the name appears to be misspelled (as I also did above).

Another series of systematic tests for the 44-40 cartridge can be found here. See:


This is what I mean when I say "systematic." A lot of data is collected and used to make inferences about the subject at hand. That site also identifies "RSI" in the proper context. RSI = Recreational Software, Inc.

Further, http://kwk.us/pressures.html contains a direct reference to the Bramwell article in Varmint Hunter magazine:
  • In 2005, Recreational Software, maker of Pressure Trace, was keeping a copy of an article by Denton Bramwell, originally published in Varmint Hunter magazine. In this article, he shows that CUP and piezo pressure measurements are well correlated statistically, and he offers some approximate conversion formulas (see below). His CIP conversion formula was used for those cartridges for which I had the crusher value but not the piezo, and these entries are marked * above.
Unfortunately, the hyperlink to the article is dead. A site, www.shootingsoftware.com, where the article link, https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf, is meant to be, does not open.

Does anyone have a copy of this article they are willing to post or post a link to it? It will be appreciated.

Here is another site with useful links on this subject:

https://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/shoot/index.html, which contains deeper links to several systematic results.

Fascinating stuff!



-mouse
 
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