Bumping Shoulders Issue

statjunk

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Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
219
UUUUUUUUUUUuGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! This has got to be the most expensive hobby in the freakin world. ***

Ok let me start at the top. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I feel that enough people responded that in due time I will solve this problem.

Some one mentioned that not all sizer can bump. I think I may have one of those. When using my full length sizer normally it pushes up against the shell holder and there is some play in the die as sleeve moves up into the die body. Is this one of those type of sizers? The kind that can't be used to bump?

A body die, does that simply move the shoulder back and nothing else? Do you then use a neck sizing die to adjust the neck?

To those that have said that I'm moving the die too much, I don't think I can be as precise as I need to be if I need to move in 32nd or 64ths with these lee dies because of the rubber o-ring. Are you guys easily able to move in such small increments with your dies?

Thanks to all.

Tom
 

Moosetracker

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Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
56
I also use a Redding the body die to bump the shoulder and resize the case a minimal amount. To set it up for a .002" bump on the shoulder I use the following procedure.

1. I take a case fire formed in my firearm. The case should be a tight fit so that it's as close as possible to chamber dimensions.
2. Set the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and zero the gauge. Here's the link: Innovative Technologies - Reloading Equipment
3. Insert a .003" shim on the redding body die and screw the die in the press till it's snug on the shellholder. Here's the link for the set of shims:
- Skip's die shim kit - (7/8-14)
4. Resize the case with that set up.
5. Place the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and get a measurement of the amount of shoulder bump.
6. If the bump measures .005" all you need to do is replace the .003" shim with a .006" shim and you get a .002" bump.

The beauty of this set up is that you don't need to touch the die even if you have multiple guns of the same caliber - you just change the shim in accordance with the bump you need. Also you can use another shim if you want more or less bump.

Occasionnally, you get a minimal dimension chamber where you can only get .001" or less with the body die. When this occurs, I use a dedicated shell holder which I sand on a flat surface to take off .001" or so.

Finally it's a good idea to keep a tight fitting fire formed case in your die box to test your setting with the Headspace Digital Gauge occasionnally.

Much of what I describe here can be applied to a regular full length die.

Good luck.
 

statjunk

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Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
219
No, I'm using Lee dies.

Can anyone answer the questions I put in my last post?

Is my Lee FL sizer capable of bumping a shoulder?

If using a body die, do you have to use a neck die afterwards to remove the primer and size the neck?

Thanks

Tom
 

flashhole

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Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
464
UUUUUUUUUUUuGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Some one mentioned that not all sizer can bump. I think I may have one of those. When using my full length sizer normally it pushes up against the shell holder and there is some play in the die as sleeve moves up into the die body. Is this one of those type of sizers? The kind that can't be used to bump?

A neck sizer die will not bump the shoulder back. If you have a FL sizing die it should move the shoulder back to SAMMI specs. I have the Hornady New Dimension dies but am not aware of the claim that it goes beyond SAMMI specs. It does not make sense to me that the die manufacturer would do that.

A body die, does that simply move the shoulder back and nothing else? Do you then use a neck sizing die to adjust the neck?

Yes. Redding makes a body size only die that does not touch the neck, only the webbing and the shoulder. Yes. You would have to use a neck die in conjunction with the body die. I have a couple, they work great.

To those that have said that I'm moving the die too much, I don't think I can be as precise as I need to be if I need to move in 32nd or 64ths with these lee dies because of the rubber o-ring. Are you guys easily able to move in such small increments with your dies?

"Fine tuning" the die setting is a matter of practice. You will be surprised at the small changes you can effect by a very slight die depth setting. As you do more at the bench you will refine your technique just like a lot of us have. You just have to keep at it.

Thanks to all.

Tom


Hope this helps
 
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
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Location
Sudbury Ontario Canada
No, I'm using Lee dies.

Can anyone answer the questions I put in my last post?

Is my Lee FL sizer capable of bumping a shoulder?

If using a body die, do you have to use a neck die afterwards to remove the primer and size the neck?

Thanks

Tom

I'm pretty new too but I did this a few weeks back and my Lee FL sizer seems to work fine so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. As others said make REALLY small adjustments as you go. I had the rubber lock ring snugged so you can still turn the die a tiny bit at a time with a bit of resistance.

You said the gauge was giving you readings that seemed to vary unpredictably as you moved the die, can you describe what exactly happens on your gauge if you start with the die backed right out and keep sizing it and moving it down REALLY slowly until it finally touches the shell holder (all the way down)?

Assuming you start with the die backed out far enough, mine always grow longer as the die comes down at first, the reason apparently being because the body on the sides is squeezed and this causes the length to grow a bit. Then when the die is down far enough it will finally start to bump the shoulder back. Maybe that's what you were seeing if you were making large adjustments that took you above and below the zone of shoulder bumping magic (it's not a big zone!!).

Good luck!!!
 

Moosetracker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
56
No, I'm using Lee dies.

Can anyone answer the questions I put in my last post?

Is my Lee FL sizer capable of bumping a shoulder?

If using a body die, do you have to use a neck die afterwards to remove the primer and size the neck?

Thanks

Tom

Yes, your Lee FL sizer can bump the shoulder when adjusted properly.

A body die only bumps the shoulder and resizes the case. You also need a neck die to deprime and resize the neck, for example a Lee collet die.
 

J E Custom

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Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
10,720
Location
Texas
Maybe this will clear it up a little better.

There are many different types of dies and some are designed to size to SAAMI specs
ONLY . The way you have to use them for bumping the shoulder is to grind or swap the
shell holder until you can move the shoulder.

Another type of die is the small base die. They are made for sizing smaller than SAMMI
specs. They are used primarily for full autos and dangerous game so they will chamber
under all conditions without fail.

There are also dies that can be set at any length to help fit your chamber as best you
can,And one brand that I know of that is this type is the Hornady New Dimension dies
and these have to be set without seating against the shell holder.

And the other type of dies are the custom dies made from your reamer specs or a loaded
round for custom throats and shoulders.

You can sometimes make small adjustments beyond the dies intended use but it is best
to buy the right dies for the job intended.

I hope this answered your questions

J E CUSTOM
 

johnnyk

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Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
2,378
Location
Potters Hill, NC
statjunk,
FL dies are capable of being adjusted all the way down to the shell holder to resize the whole case (FL) or adjusted upwards to only bump the shoulder or upwards farther to only resize the neck.
The case that you use should have been fired in your rifle. Before you start this process put it in your rifle and close the bolt (I'm assuming this is a bolt action rifle). When you start pushing the bolt down you should feel some/slight resistance to closing
To better see my progress when I'm neck resizing or bumping the shoulder, I first lube the case inside and out. Taking care not to get too much lube on the shoulder, thus preventing ripples in the shoulders. Then I use a bic lighter to smut up the case from the top of the case down to the bottom of the shoulder/body junction.
You may be able to turn that lock nut over on the die so the rubber o-ring is facing up and outta the picture for the time being.
I then get the die started in the press and repeatedly run the case up in the die until I start seeing the smut starting to get rubbed off by the die. The case becomes shiney whenever it touches the internal parts of the die. I keep screwing the die down until I get the neck resized and the shoulder bumped back. You'll know when the shoulder gets bumped because not only will the smut be smeared or rubbed off in spots but it will also chamber in your rifle much easier than it did originally.
Note: once I get the neck resized and I'm trying to bump the shoulder also, I start checking the case in my rifle's chamber more often. If I have to re-smut the case again I will. Hope this helps. JohnnyK.
 

statjunk

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Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
219
I feel like I'm hung up on the fact that I have this mic now and I want to use it.

Here is one part of the process that I don't quite understand. I put a piece of fire formed brass in the press and sent it to the top. I then started the FL die down over the brass and it stopped 1/2-3/4" above where I would normally set the die when FL sizing. What stopped the die? Did it hit the shoulder? Or did it stop at the neck?

I'm going to experiment tonight my sooting the brass and see if the die is even hitting the shoulder.

Tom
 

jimbires

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Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
2,069
Location
clearfield county , Pa
Here is one part of the process that I don't quite understand. I put a piece of fire formed brass in the press and sent it to the top. I then started the FL die down over the brass and it stopped 1/2-3/4" above where I would normally set the die when FL sizing. What stopped the die? Did it hit the shoulder? Or did it stop at the neck?



Tom


is the decapping pin hitting the old primer ?
 

statjunk

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Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
219
Ok did another experiment today. I took to pieces of fire formed brass. I measured them with the mic and they are .002 over saami. I put one in the ram and sent it to the top. I started the FL die down onto the brass and it stopped. I lowered the ram and dialed the die down a very small amount. Operated the ram sending the brass into the die and it met almost no resistance. I measured the brass with the mic and no change.

I did this over and over and over again moving the die in small increments and I didn't see any change whatsoever. I continued to make sure that the die wouldn't hand tighten down onto the brass at any point as though it were hung up on something.

At some point I could see the mark on the brass where the die was neck sizing it. So I pulled out the neck sizer and sized the brass removing the old primer.

I put the brass back on the press and operated it again in small increments. It wasn't until the bottom of the die was even with the underside of the press that I saw a change and the brass started to get longer. The mic indicated that the brass was .003 over saami. As I dialed the die down it just kept getting longer, .004 and .005. It wasn't until the die hit the shell holder that it made a change and it went all the way down to -.004 under saami. So there was a .008 change in the size of the brass. I was like ***.

So I took the other piece of fire formed brass, that hadn't been in the press and measured it again, just to cover my arse. It was .002 over saami. I sent into the press expecting it to be -.004 under saami and to my surprise there was no change. Still .002 over saami.

I just stopped right there.

Does anyone know what is going on with my set up? Are my dies not set up properly?

Thanks

Tom
 

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