Bullet penciling question?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by BoomFlop, Jun 24, 2019.


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  1. BoomFlop

    BoomFlop Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading of people saying they have taken a shot at close range and claiming the bullet penciled through the animal. I even called Berger and talked to a tech about my typical close range shots and he said the bullets are moving too fast to get expansion time. I find this hard to believe especially at 308 Win and 7-08 velocities at 50-125 yards.

    What are your thoughts on small entrances and exits? Is it lack of expansion or is it too much expansion and the small exit is just the jacket or fragmentation? Or is it something else?

    Thanks
    Steve
     
  2. elkaholic

    elkaholic Official LRH Sponsor

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    You could get all kinds of arguments on bullets but that may be the most unbelievable ive ever heard
     
  3. BoomFlop

    BoomFlop Well-Known Member

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    The penciling or that it is too fast? The tech at Berger told me I should be shooting a 30-30 at those ranges.
     
  4. elkaholic

    elkaholic Official LRH Sponsor

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    Too fast to have expansion time is absurd unless he was shooting hummingbirds! Bullets dont expand for two reasons. Too slow for the construction of the bullet or not enough resistance, which is actually related to reason #1. Bergers that have dinged or closed tips are the most common reason for not expanding, providing they are traveling at a velocity that would normally expand them.
     
  5. bdlesh

    bdlesh Well-Known Member

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    I dont claim to be anything close to an expect or intelligent, but I thought the problem with target bullets at close range ,were they would explode at close range on game and partition/ bonded are best for close range. The "Traget" type are better for long range where velocity has dropped and allow the bullet to expand and not explode, while the " huntin" type would pass through because of the lack of energy and speed.
    Is that close to correct or am I way off base? Inquiring mind want to know!
     
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  6. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

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    I've seen exactly one Berger pencil, still killed her, in hundreds of animals which is the lowest number from any bullet I've shot, I've had exactly zero Bergers blow up, I've ran them fast and slow as close a 80 yards on bull elk right in the heavy neck to 1000 plus though the lungs and neck, very even performance each time. One of our favorite antelope chamberings is a 22-250 pushing a Berger varmint bullet 3500 fps, my buddy shot a doe right on the point of the shoulder at spitting distance quartering to him and it ended up under her hid on the of side, all the other have exited and very dead goats and the same effect when we where shooting piles of whitetail does with them. I've have FAR better results up close and far with match type bullets than one marketed for hunting! I've hit elk and deer close with 215 Bergers, 140 bergers, 170 Bergers, 300 and 250 Bergers and several others and all make it into the core of the animal and destroy the their will to live very quick and clean, my favorite bullet from a 308 is a 215 Berger and it knocks them out of their hooves close or far. I have shot a lot of deer and elk trying to make a target bullet, specifically a Berger either blow or pencil and never have been able to except that one random doe with a 210.
     
  7. Barrelnut

    Barrelnut Well-Known Member

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    Berger target bullets have a thicker jacket than Berger hunting bullets.
    I always check each Berger bullet to make sure the hollow point is not filled up and closed. Some have a clay like polishing compound in side the tip closed. It makes it difficult for the bullet to expand. I check and clean the tips with a small sewing pin. If I cannot clean it, I use that bullet for target and only use open ones for hunting.
    The Bergers, I have checked since they moved to AZ, have had much fewer closed tips. That's good.
     
  8. HARPERC

    HARPERC Well-Known Member

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    I think Rich has already expressed most of this.

    The issue around "target bullets" has always been inconsistency. Sometimes disintegrate, some pencil, some are just right.

    Too fast is an bizarre explanation that should have died long ago. Growing pains at Berger?

    I think those succeeding with the Berger at all ranges, spend the time to make sure the HP is patent, generally something heavy for caliber, but I believe there are those doing well at all ranges.

    There are bullets that are better hollow pointed, accurate, with consistent performance. The larger HP comes at the price of BC. So the real question is how much range, and accuracy do you need.
     
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  9. Almondgrower

    Almondgrower Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    This is exactly why u don’t use target Bullets for hunting as I just posted on another thread on this site , the results can Lead to lost animals and suffering !
     
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  10. TBell

    TBell Active Member

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    I would think you should be able to answer the question your self pretty quickly your self on examine the animal.

    If you gut it and the opposite side hide has a blood bruise the size of a saucer and the internals look like jello, it was a fragment. If not it was a pass through.
     
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  11. MarkA

    MarkA Well-Known Member

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    Hammer Bullets
     
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  12. elkaholic

    elkaholic Official LRH Sponsor

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    I know what youre trying to say but there has to be common sense used with whatever bullet you use. My personal belief is there is a greater chance of losing an animal, with a so called hunting bullet, at long range, and this is a "long range hunting forum"!
     
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  13. Alibiiv

    Alibiiv Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    If you have a question about bullet expansion, I' like to suggest simply changing bullets! I hunt bear over bait in Maine, my shots are close. I'm either hunting a 35 Whelen or 358 Winchester. The Whelen with 225 grain bullets is around 2700fps, the 358 Winchester is about 2500fps with 200 grain TTSX bullets. With my last bear, taken at 60-70 yards, the bear was quartering, shot center mass in the chest and exited behind the shoulder. The guide made a statement the the bullet did not exit. I told him to look behind the shoulder because that pink stuff was the lung. The last bear that I shot with the .358 (about 50 yards) was a broadside, through and through, just behind the shoulder. Entrance hole was about the size of a quarter, exit was close to the size of your fist. Broke both shoulders, the bear ran about 20 feet and dropped. There's a lot of information on the Hammer bullets on the forum. I have not tried the hammers because I am satisfied with the Barnes performance at the ranges that I am shooting and the game that I am hunting.
     
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  14. crkckr

    crkckr Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record on this subject but I've never had a failure of any kind with the Nosler Partition bullets. The longest shot I've ever taken was with a .270 Win. on an antelope that someone else had wounded, at 750 yards (I would normally never take such a shot but this goat was missing his lower jaw). The 130 gr. bullet entered just behind the shoulder, hit a rib on the way in and the way out. Tiny hole going in, mushed both lungs and a ragged, quarter sized hole on the way out. The only performance complaint I've heard regarding Partitions is that they sometimes work too well. An aquaintence shot a little Coues buck (maybe 100 - 110 lbs) at about 35 yards in the shoulder with a 7mm Wby. Neat little hole going in but it completely removed the off shoulder & leg! He didn't have to chase it, tho! I've killed deer & antelope with my .308 using 165 Partitions from 50 to 250 yards and bullet performance was perfect every time, breaking shoulder bones or shattering skulls, depending on range. Partitions simply work.
    Cheers,
    crkckr