Building a rifle specifically for copper bullets

[Tinbender]

I am a resident of California. In the area that I hunt I've been limited to copper bullets for hunting since the time I've really gotten into reloading for accuracy and longer ranges. What I have noticed with the half dozen or so rifles that I shoot, is that accuracy with copper bullets is really hit and miss, and it seems that there really hasn't been much correlation in what guns will shoot these bullets and which ones won't.

I have a couple semi custom rifles, which will shoot great with different brand bullets at different weights, but for some reason will just not keep up once I try to run copper. On the other hand I have factory rifles that will shoot the copper as well or better than anything else I shoot through them. The twist rates in all of these are what are recommended for the copper, so I don't see the answer being as simple as that. So my question is is there anything that can be done differently when starting from scratch that will allow me to build a gun that will shoot copper, specifically Barnes as they have seemed to produce better results than the nosler or Hornady offerings pretty much across the board.

Where I am at at this point is that I have a rem 700 in 270 that I am thinking about having re barreled into a 280ai, but for it to be worth the process, I would like to do whatever it takes to try and get it to shoot one of the Barnes offerings, either the 145 or 168 lrx or the 150 Ttsx. I tried to get some insight from Barnes as to anything different that could be done when to get them to shoot but was basically told a quality barrel with the right twist rate etc was all they could recommend, but I have tried it in other guns which were proven with everything else and it just didn't shoot the copper bullets like it would.

So basically, is this something even worth pursuing, or am I better off focusing on a more accurate bullet to build it to and hoping it might throw the copper bullets straight as well, so that I at least have a good chance that it will shoot something great or is there anything I can do to increase the chances that I can get the copper to shoot well, even if it means other bullets might not.

Thanks in advance for the help, I'm interested to hear from anyone that has any ideas for me.

 

[adam32]

Have you messed with your COAL yet with the copper bullets?

 

[cowboy]

I have found that I have to clean my custom barrel extremely well when I switch to shooting copper and vice versa.

But the bottom line is I can't get the Barnes to shoot as well as some other lead brands. I'm just glad I don't live in a place like California.

 

[Tinbender]

Have you messed with your COAL yet with the copper bullets?

Yeah and that's what is frustrating, I can't find a pattern at all. My 300 win mag likes them from .010 off to touching, and my 6.5-06 wants them around .080-.100 off. Both of those have custom barrels but I have a factory 300 WSM that doesn't seem to care where I seat them and will outshoot the other two with the Barnes but can't hold a candle to them with anything else.

 

[FearNoWind]

Like you, I too hunt California and find myself hunting in areas that already require lead free bullets. I am currently preparing my .284 (1:9 26 inch Bartlein 5R with 2.633 chamber) for a pig hunt scheduled for later this month. Up 'till now I've relied on 180gr Berger VLDs which shoot exceptionally well in this rifle with a CBTO of 2.600. Over the past week I've tried to make it work with 168gr Barnes LRX pills but regardless of what I try with load and seating depth adjustments they keyhole with embarrassing regularity. Barnes says they're good for 1:9 or faster but that, obviously, is not universal. I do find that if I push them harder they seem to want to stabilize but when I got to the point of pressure concerns and couldn't go any further I abandoned the 168s and began working the Barnes 150gr TTsx. Wow!!! What a difference. Those little beauties group at under .5 moa gun)-------------
My point is that I'm not sure it's the copper that's the problem. Bringing a solid copper bullet up to a comparable weight as a lead core bullet of the same caliber means the bullet has to be longer. Ain't no other way to get there. It takes a fast twist to stabilize the newer sleeker scenar bullets and, while Barnes claims 1:9 will do it, that's not true of my rifle. I'd like to see some comments from those with faster twists who have tried the 169 Barnes LRX.
To get back to your point - I'd suggest you build the rifle you want to shoot with twist that is most likely to accommodate the longer, sleeker bullets we're going to have to deal with where there are copper restrictions.

 

[Tinbender]

I have found that I have to clean my custom barrel extremely well when I switch to shooting copper and vice versa.

But the bottom line is I can't get the Barnes to shoot as well as some other lead brands. I'm just glad I don't live in a place like California.

Thanks and I have seen the same thing with cleaning, you can't just switch back and forth. And I'm resigned to the fact that I'm giving up accuracy with the Barnes but I'm stuck here so hopefully I can figure out how to do the best with the hand I've been dealt. I just don't know if there is anything specific that can be done if shooting copper is the only option that will help or if it isn't worth trying to change it up and just stick to the original formula of straight action, good bedding, good chamber and barrel and hope for the best

 

[Tinbender]

Like you, I too hunt California and find myself hunting in areas that already require lead free bullets. I am currently preparing my .284 (1:9 26 inch Bartlein 5R with 2.633 chamber) for a pig hunt scheduled for later this month. Up 'till now I've relied on 180gr Berger VLDs which shoot exceptionally well in this rifle with a CBTO of 2.600. Over the past week I've tried to make it work with 168gr Barnes LRX pills but regardless of what I try with load and seating depth adjustments they keyhole with embarrassing regularity. Barnes says they're good for 1:9 or faster but that, obviously, is not universal. I do find that if I push them harder they seem to want to stabilize but when I got to the point of pressure concerns and couldn't go any further I abandoned the 168s and began working the Barnes 150gr TTsx. Wow!!! What a difference. Those little beauties group at under .5 moa gun)-------------
My point is that I'm not sure it's the copper that's the problem. Bringing a solid copper bullet up to a comparable weight as a lead core bullet of the same caliber means the bullet has to be longer. Ain't no other way to get there. It takes a fast twist to stabilize the newer sleeker scenar bullets and, while Barnes claims 1:9 will do it, that's not true of my rifle. I'd like to see some comments from those with faster twists who have tried the 169 Barnes LRX.
To get back to your point - I'd suggest you build the rifle you want to shoot with twist that is most likely to accommodate the longer, sleeker bullets we're going to have to deal with where there are copper restrictions.

Thanks I really appreciate everyone's replies, and that so many people on here have information to provide. When I talked to Barnes I was told 1-8 would be the best bet if I wanted to do the 168s, so I don't really see the downside and will probably go that route of if I do it. In the past I tend to go a little lighter bullet with the copper compared to what I'm doing with lead and have had the best results, and yes most of the loads get better the faster I push them so it's encouraging to hear someone else has had the same type of results. What are you doing for seating depth, are you doing anything different between the 168 and 150s?

 

[FearNoWind]

... What are you doing for seating depth, are you doing anything different between the 168 and 150s?

I tried everything from 2.525 to 2.600 (that's .108 to .033 jump with my chamber) with the 168s and none of them proved workable. I used that spread because it was what the 180 Bergers liked (heck - the Bergers prints on target hold 1moa or better anywhere within that entire range of seating depths). Powder charges had greater affect than seating depths but, as I mentioned previously, when I got to the point of "don't go there" with pressure risks I just abandoned the 168s. I did try one round just touching the lands but that too proved fruitless, keyholing like all the others, and I don't like to work with bullets seated that tight to the lands anyhow.
The 150s are working great for me at .033 off the lands. I suppose it's possible to squeeze a bit more accuracy out of it but with .5 moa success I can't see any reason to waste good bullets seeking perfection.
I think your 1:8 plan makes good sense.

 

[Bigcat_hunter]

Do they have bullet police in kalifornia? Just sayin....

 

[Varberger757]

You'll find a ready - to - go - rifle on the market, especially made for use of monolithics. It's a high - end rifle of Steyr Mannlicher from Austria, "The Steyr Mannlicher Lead Free". gun)

: LEAD FREE : hunting rifles : STEYR MANNLICHER

 

[HarryN]

Consider to try some GS Custom HV bullets instead of the Barnes. The construction is enough different that the behavior might be completely different.

I also have a .270 win and am looking at those next, but more like 100 grain to get the stability.

From what I can tell, if you want to shoot 150 - 250 grain bullets, it now takes a 375, like an H&H, ruger, or similar. It takes a BIG jump in caliber to make a significant move from .270 results with copper bullets.

Since you hand load, a 375 Taylor might be interesting.

Personally, I think that Barnes is a little bit optimistic with the bullet length (weight) vs. twist stability numbers, and certainly is far more aggressive compared to Cutting Edge and GS custom recommendations.

 

[idaho elk hunter]

All of the harder bullets including the solid copper like to have a good amount of freebore and max velocity loads. That has een my experience.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Do they have bullet police in kalifornia? Just sayin....

Yes we do. $1500.

Do not carry a personal protection side arm loaded with lead containing bullets even if you are rifle hunting with copper or bow hunting as you will get the $1500 fine.

I loaded copper for my PP side arm that I will carry while hunting in bear areas.

Our regulations are anti constitutional but enforcing constitutional rights requires defending them in court. The state has unlimited resources.gun)

 

[Outlaw6.0]

All of the harder bullets including the solid copper like to have a good amount of freebore and max velocity loads. That has een my experience.

This has also been my experience, especially with the Barnes. While I've only worked with the .30cal 150, 168 & 180's & the 7mm 140MRX; we've shot several hundred of them... if not more.


OP- what ranges are you intending to shoot? I can personally recommend the Cutting Edge as a bullet less finicky than Barnes (at least in my experience). They also seem to offer a better BC across the board.


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