Bill & Lerch's "APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag"

Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

new shooter,

You won't loose "half of your bbl life." I'm sure there is some problem associated w/it but it can't be much worse than live round fireforming. If you'll notice there is only one individual that has a real problem w/this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. When you go w/these extreme cases sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

Corn meal aint gonna cut your bbl life in half. It will be when great when we can get pre formed cases from Kirby but until then this it the way we have to do it. There is only one guy on here with a problem with this and i aint gonna worry about it.

How long till you get your gun??????
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

New shooter, May-be someone has a 338 AM thats about or is shot out. May-be they can form some brass for you. Dosen't hurt to ask. If you can wait a year Steve and Bill might be able to set you up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

New Shooter

Why don't you send an email to your gunsmith and ask him what is the best shot he has ever made with a cornmeal blasted 338 AM barrel. Then you can ask yourself if a gun that shoots that bad is good enough for you or if you believe you need more accuracy.
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

[ QUOTE ]
New Shooter

Why don't you send an email to your gunsmith and ask him what is the best shot he has ever made with a cornmeal blasted 338 AM barrel. Then you can ask yourself if a gun that shoots that bad is good enough for you or if you believe you need more accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now there's a good idea /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif!!!
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

BB,

Lets see, 1095 yards, 2100 yards, 2370 yards. That was just in five outings chuck hunting last summer....

Working on the formed cases and possibly on correct headstamped cases as well if $$ is acceptable. Until then, I will be forming with corn meal in my personal rifles. I think that tells my opinion pretty well.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

Myself, I am very particular about the cornmeal I use. I prefer the round cardboard containers because the bags will rip and spill. Also I refuse to use anything but yellow cornmeal. The white cormeal just dosn't look as pretty as the yellow when you put it in the brass case. In my experience it is hard to beat Quaker for good performance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

reloading.jpg
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

Lerch and Bill,
You guys crack me up. You can't honestly believe I'm the only one on earth that doesn't like the idea of abrasive material flying down a soft stainless steel barrel at over the speed of sound. As with any debate, those that support the "non-popular" view do not always chime in because of the fear of confrontation. Well, I'm obviously supporting the non-popular view against a few guys who either can't admit or won't admit that they might be doing something that can hurt their expensive toys. Perhaps it is a defense mechanism. But I will have you know, I have recieved 4 emails from fellas in the last 2 days saying that they tried cormeal fireforming with horrific results, or they were told not to by their gunsmiths or barrel makers. They simply didn't want to post here because they would obviously be the underdog to this crowd. Well, I don't care now or will ever care if I am the underdog. I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen and I will not be made to look like I'm the only one around who doesn't agree with your breakfast blasting.

Perhaps you should do some research before you label me as a lunatic. THus far, you are riding on the sole opinion of two gunsmiths (who I respect also) who both admit that firing cornmeal would be best done in a scrap barrel. I have done the research and was just putting it out there to help cause I thought we were pals and you guys cop an attitude and act like your metallurgists or something. You guys have ONE gun of which you have yet to fire with real bullets. Kirby has one 338 and has had some fantastic results no doubt, but he has less than 300 rounds through it so I wouldn't say that is exactly a lot of info to go on. No doubt it shoots good, but I never said a breakfast blasted barrel wouldn't shoot good. I simply said that it is abrasive and can reduce barrel life and harm barrels. I AM NOT ALONE ON THIS! Do some reading, attend some br matches, ask some barrel mfctrs, quiz a few gunsmiths and you'll find out that not everyone will recommend fireforming with cormeal. Of the ones who do use it, the majority of them are using it in takeoff barrels only, not in their competetion barrels.

Of the particular barrels I saw that had been fireformed in this manner, they looked like they had scratched and rounded off the edge of the rifling for a few inches in front of the throat and again at the muzzle. I am not making this up!

Now I have no doubt that Kirby has experimented with this in his big case and it very well may be the only way to get the cases fireformed in this particular caliber. If he feels it is best than it must be. I never said that it wouldn't fireform the cases or make anything not shoot as good. I said that it will affect the condition of the barrel. I may have exaggerated the half barrel life thing, but maybe not. It could be more, could be less. You might not even notice a difference in accuracy while the barrel is new.

Anyhow, I'm done debating this. I really don't care one way or another if you believe me or not but at least do some research and ask some more questions before you single a guy out as "nit-picky", "crazy" or "over-exaggerative"
just because he presents a different view of the world.

Remember, I have been around this block a few times myself and I have put more rounds down two custom 338 wildcats than yourselves or Kirby. I deal with firearms everyday and I'm not talking about sitting in a gun shop selling them. I use them and work on them everyday and have probably turned more guns into 1k shooters than most guys ever imagine. In this process, I have learned a thing or two and I get an interesting perspective on things that most people will never be in a position to learn. It is from this that I try to give a tidbit of advice to help a brother out once in awhile and I speak my mind when others are afraid to. Those are my faults. Being a liar or not a straight-shooter are not.


Oh, and one last thing before I step down from this soapbox: You state this gun "only has 1000 rounds of barrel life so why waste them". Well, consider this: The 338 lapua improved shooting 300 grain mk's wore out a barrel in less than 300 rounds. By wore out I mean firecracked the hell out of the first three inches of throat so bad that it took a full day to clean the pig and it degraded the bc of the bullet a full point. A 338 ultra mag improved shooting 225 grain bullets has significant firecracking after 500 rounds. Both of these guns fire 95 grains of powder. How do you expect a round that has <font color="red">50% more capacity to get 100% more barrel life?! </font> There is something else you guys need to research. It's called expansion ratios. In other words, how much weight of a solid can turn into a volume of gas and be pushed down a hole and how long is that hole. The higher the ratio number the better. You can pretty effectively guess the barrel life of a cartridge by running the ratio and the cartridge you are shooting there is WAAAAY under the number 10 which is considered "not very good". Knowing this, you would think I would recommend "shoot that cornmeal by all means to save that barrel" but I actually say the opposite. But what the hell do I know?
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

I appreciate your kind words and didn't mean to frighten you about this topic. I would trust Kirby and if he says this is the only way to fireform that big case then I would believe him. Just cross your fingers that everything goes well and that's about all that we can do on anything.

Perhaps by the time you get this gun ready, Kirby will have his pre-made brass ready to purchase and this will all be a mute point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

I never labeled you a lunatic or anything else. I also never said that firing cornmeal down the bbl didn't do some harm. All I said was that it couldn't do any more than blasting 100 + grains down the bore.

I have great respect for you and all that you have done but you just made my point for me w/this line.

[ QUOTE ]
Now I have no doubt that Kirby has experimented with this in his big case and it very well may be the <font color="red">only way </font> to get the cases fireformed in this particular caliber. If he feels it is best than it must be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish there was another way, but for now, this will have to suffice.

As far as the bbl life goes, Lerch thinks 1000. I think he's nuts. If we get 800 I'll be ecstatic. I'm figuring things will go south somewhere between 600-800 rounds. We'll see.

[ QUOTE ]
I deal with firearms everyday and I'm not talking about sitting in a gun shop selling them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got no problem w/you or you voicing your opinions. Just don't make degrading comments and we can keep it that way.
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

BB,

Thats the exact stuff I have a case of at the shop!!!

Good choice. Makes good corn bread as well!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

GG,

Wait a minute fella, It may be true that I only have 300 rounds down my 338 AM but I have several, SEVERAL thousand rounds down a few 257 AX, 6.5mm AX, 270 AX, 257 AMs, 6.5mm AMs, 270 AMs and 7mm AMs and all have had corn meal fireforming through their barrels and all are still shooting very well or shot to the point they have to be rebarreled but not before a good number of rounds were down their tubes.

Also, concerning the comment about you putting more rounds down a custom 338 then I have, I am not offended by this at all but you simply have no idea that is true. Remember I have been throwing lead out of a 338 Kahn long before I started playing with my 338 AM. My current Kahn has just shy of 800 rounds down the tube and it is still a 3/4 moa rifle at 1000 yards and yes it formed cases with corn meal as well. I also do not load it to red line pressures. This is a key to increasing barrel life. I know you run your 338 Lapua Improved pretty hard. YOu have to to get the numbers you are getting and in the Lapua case, I would to!!! I get 2950 fps in my Kahn with the 300 gr smk. THe case capacity of this round will allow 3150 fps but case life will not last with the soft norma cases. This is a blessing to be honest because if the 338-378 parent case could handle the pressures that the Lapua case could, I would probably run it up that high as well and get the 3150 and also get the shorter barrel life you are seeing.

You are also not the only one that shoots every day. Not by a long shot. Many of us here on LRH do this for a full time living. I type that laughing because most top end smiths I know spend more like 60-70 hours in a five day week working and then throw in another 10 to 15 on the weekend. Last year I logged 14,296 rounds loaded over the year in my ammo log book. What ever gets logged also gets shot. I have logged over 10K rounds every year since 1998 so that gives you a bit of an idea how many times the trigger gets pulled. Now sure many of these are handgun and smaller rifles but point being, some of us shoot ALOT for a living. Not saying I shoot as much as you, but I burn my fair share of gunpowder.

I am not trying to flame you or question your comments in any way, I have never been one to do that but you did bring my name into this debate and used it in several instances where one could possibly get quite offended if they did not know the guy on the other end making the comments like I know you.

I know you mean no disrespect and none taken but I would almost gaurantee that I have many more rounds down the four 7mm AMs I have owned then you have down your two custom 338 rifles. Probably several times more from all the load development I have done with all the different bullet weights.

This is not a "chest thumping" comment, but realize there is some siginficant experience behind my comments as I know there is from yours as well.

This just seems to be getting out of control and things may turn for the worse and I would hate to see that. There is no need.

No one denys that best case senerio would be to have formed cases ready to load with full tilt pressures. That, unfortunately is not cheap but I am working on it for my customers. It is a major investment to get your name on a **** case and as a small shop, its not like Remington coming out with a new round and putting their stamp on it. Takes time and more importantly $$$$$$. Working on both as we speak.

As far as fireforming, live fire fireforming is not a viable option with this round so the debate for this specific rifle should not even be taking place. For other smaller wildcats with less extreme case transformations, sure, there are very good options but not here. It is not like a 338 Lapua Improved that easily forms with live fire fireforming.

Your comments about the abrasive properties of corn meal are well taken but can you tell me that corn meal is more abrasive then 135 grains of partially burning H-50BMG? What is harder on the throat, low temp corn meal at 1000 fps or VERY HOT, very abbrasive H-50BMG at MUCH higher velocities and pressure??? Sure there may be some abrasion occuring, happens anytime anything gets pushed down the bore but in this case, there is no option and in my experience, I would rather go with corn meal over anything else with this round.

It is certainly not the bullet I am worried about with fireforming and shortening barrel life. Its the 135 to 150 grains of hot burning powder in the throat that concerns me for the sake of forming a case.

Then there is the safety issue. I do not know if you have experiences a collapsed shoulder when fireforming a case. As much as you have done I am sure you have.

THis is unpleasant with conventional cases, with the 408 based wildcats it can be flat out dangerous. I just will not recommend a process of forming cases that has the potential for dangerous results, not to mention even the chance of scoring the chamber at best. AND it will, trust me, been there done that!!!

As far as your comments about your 338 barrel going south after 300 rounds. Your uncle told me there were several times that the barrel got extremely heated. Could this be a contributing factor in short barrel life. ALso with your 338 Thunder, I know how much you have tested that round. I also know how hard it is to keep a barrel cool while doing load development or long range testing. There are many factors that can increase or shorten barrel life which are in the hands of the rifle shooter.

My point being, I am not basing my experience off of my 338 AM. Its off the many thousands of rounds from my other Allen Magnums and Allen Xpress wildcats where i get my experience base from. To say my opinion is based off 300 rounds with my 338 AM could really be taken as a slap in my face.

Now I know you do not mean it that way because I know you, I have worked with you many times and I respect your skills and knowledge base. I just ask that you measure your comments a bit more carefully so someone does not take what you type as an offensive comment when it is not intended as such.

All that said, I agree, this post needs to stop. When bullets get in the air Steve and BJ, start her up again and let us know how she works.

In the mean time I will keep working on the formed case situation so we will not have to worry about this conversation again!!!

Best wishes to everyone and please do not take any offense from this post, none was intended as I know none was intented in other posts that included me in them.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

Buffalobob,

The background of your picture looks like the morning after a Burrito Eating Contest!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whats that white pvc contraption resting in front of your breakfast table?
 
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"

The campsite was selected to be away from people and it is obvious why people were not camped there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The white contraption is a homemade cleaning rod case to help protect the cleaning rod from dings and nicks and getting bent. It is made from PVC pipe. The benchrest people make a homemade dual rod holder that is better for protection against bending.

You will see three cleaning rods there. I was one the road for nearly two months last year.
 
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