Bias towards the Mauser action for long range hunting?

[benchracer]

Thank you again for the replies, I will then go the route by buying a donor rifle and use the action, it will be the most recent technology, and maybe cheaper option as well. I will make use of your guys again to guide me through the building process ...

Kind Regards and many thanks.

Gert Odendaal

Depending on what is available where you are, a mauser '98 pattern action may still be an attractive option. The key is to be very careful which '98 pattern action you use as a basis for a build. Based on multiple conversations with experienced gunsmiths like shortgrass, along with my own experiences with my personal mauser based rifles, I am firmly convinced that the best option among the mausers is to stay with post WWII commercial actions. Examples of these include post 1948 FN commercial actions and pretty much any version of the Mark X (the current version of the Mark X is made by Zastava in Serbia).




Post WWII commercial 98 mauser actions have a number of advantages over their older military counterparts. First, they are made of modern steels that are through hardened, rather than case hardened. The older military mausers have to be case hardened, which limits the extent to which the actions can be trued and accurized. Actions made with modern steels have no such limitations. Secondly, the commercial mauser actions are already in a sporter configuration, so building a sporter rifle on a commercial action is much more straightforward and less expensive. Current production commercial mausers from Zastava come from the factory with a fully adjustable trigger, which is becoming increasingly rare on factory rifles these days. Simply not having to replace the trigger will save you quite a bit of money.

Simply put, the commercial mausers have a lot more potential than most people give them credit for. Often, they can be had at a considerable discount to more common commercial push feed rifles like the Remington 700 and Savage actions. Properly set up, they can be built to shoot just as accurately as any of the so-called more modern designs. Given your location, it would not surprise me at all to learn that commercial mausers are more available than other designs. I would not consider that to be a handicap.

Having said that, there are some limitations to the 98 pattern mauser that you should be aware of in planning your rifle build:

Compared to more modern designs, the mauser pattern has a very slow lock time, which is considered by many to be a theoretical limitation to its accuracy potential. Current production commercial actions incorporate improved design features to reduce lock time, but even these actions have one of the slowest lock times in existence among bolt action rifles currently in production.

The mauser receiver design is also not known for its rigidity in comparison to the tubular receivers that are more common these days. This lack of rigidity acts as a practical limit on the weight and length of barrel that can be used to obtain maximum accuracy with a mauser pattern receiver. For this reason, a solid bottomed, single shot version of the 98 pattern mauser exists, though it is not common. The use of modern steels in commercial actions also is reputed to help with this issue somewhat, but does not cure the problem entirely. I have personally used up to the equivalent of factory varmint barrel profiles with outstanding results. Beyond that, I don't know where the exact limit lies. One thing I can say, though, is that a rigid stock with good bedding can do a lot to help achieve repeatable accuracy with a mauser action. A full length aluminum bedding block in the stock is, IMO, the best option. A very close second is to select a quality laminated stock and bed the action using a steel impregnated epoxy.

The 98 pattern mauser is also limited in the length and diameter of cartridges it can accommodate. Though there are examples of 98's that have been modified to work with cartridges up to .375 H&H, the necessary structural compromises to do this make it a questionable choice as the basis for a long range rifle. I would consider 30-06 length magnum cartridges such as the .300 Winchester Magnum to be the practical limit of a 98 pattern action. Likewise, I would consider the case head diameter of the .300 Winchester Magnum to represent the practical limit for this action, which rules out the Rigby based cartridges such as the .338 Lapua and cartridges like the .338 and .300 Norma (which have a similar case head diameter to the Lapua).

If you have a desire to build a rifle chambered for something in the .338 Lapua class of cartridges on a mauser pattern action, all is not lost. The CZ 550 Magnum/BRNO 602 action will easily accommodate such cartridges and, based on what I have read regarding its popularity in Africa, should be readily available where you live. It is a stout action, made with modern materials, that should serve well as the basis for a long range rifle chambered for true long range cartridges.

Despite some of the limitations inherent in the 98 pattern mauser design, I admit to having a serious soft spot for mausers. That has led me to mostly stop even considering the more popular push feed actions like the Remington 700. When I am not looking for a mauser, I find myself searching for controlled feed actions like the Winchester Model 70, CZ 550, and Ruger 77 Mark II (themselves thinly veiled variations of the 98 pattern design). Some may even consider that a character flaw on my part. Nonetheless, I will put any of my controlled feed rifles up against any rifle with a factory production receiver any day of the week. If there is a flaw to be found with any of my rifles, it is a flaw inherent in the guy doing the driving, not the rifle itself.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Every action design has it's uses . In a single shot you would not want a controlled round feed type extractor . Being able to drop a round in and close the bolt with ease is a good thing in this regard.
I modify my mauser extractors to be able to clip over a case rim more easily if it becomes necessary to drop a single round in . It's handy to have on a long range rifle as you are firing slow well aimed shots but I don't do it very often as it's risky .
I prefer a push feed action for precision slow rate of fire type shooting , Sniper , target , varmint , long range work .
For stalking game where you may want to crank off a few shots quickly a CRF can be good but a push feed like a Sako is also very effective .
There is another issue and that is the CRF extractor is more prone to jamming cases over against the side of the chamber and causing off center fire forming.
Push feed is less prone to this .

 

[benchracer]

Every action design has it's uses . In a single shot you would not want a controlled round feed type extractor . Being able to drop a round in and close the bolt with ease is a good thing in this regard.
I modify my mauser extractors to be able to clip over a case rim more easily if it becomes necessary to drop a single round in . It's handy to have on a long range rifle as you are firing slow well aimed shots but I don't do it very often as it's risky .
I prefer a push feed action for precision slow rate of fire type shooting , Sniper , target , varmint , long range work .
For stalking game where you may want to crank off a few shots quickly a CRF can be good but a push feed like a Sako is also very effective .
There is another issue and that is the CRF extractor is more prone to jamming cases over against the side of the chamber and causing off center fire forming.
Push feed is less prone to this .

If one is using a CRF type rifle as a single shot, I don't see the extractor as an issue. As you mentioned, the extractor can be beveled to allow it to snap over the cartridge rim. The only CRF rifles that even have that issue are the military mausers. Commercial mausers, Ruger 77's, and Winchester Model 70's can be used in push feed mode with no issues. If one has concerns along those lines, there is such a thing as a single shot follower available for mausers. Moreover, even if one loads rounds far longer than magazine length, one only has to snap the rear of the round into the magazine with the bullet laying on the feed ramp and close the bolt. It is not appreciably slower to do that than it is to just drop the round in the action.

The whole CRF extractor causing alignment thing is a theoretical argument I have heard many times without ever having seen anyone produce proof that such a thing actually happens. The same argument can be made about the plunger ejector in a push feed action, but that tends to get glossed over.

If there is any valid argument to be made regarding superior accuracy in push feed actions, it has to do with the fact that the push feed actions are generally tubular in nature, which makes precise machining and concentricity of the barrel, bolt, and receiver easier to achieve.

The rest of the arguments are marketing hype designed to paper over the fact that the push feed actions were engineered to be produced more cheaply, not for greater strength or accuracy. In a production rifle, it is questionable whether any of the theoretical design advantages of a tubular action are even realized. As evidence of this, I point to the lengths Savage went to in their action design to make precise machining less important in the performance of the rifle (the floating bolt head is a good example of this).

One reason I stopped buying push feed rifles is that I found the fit, finish, and overall quality of workmanship on CRF actions to be superior to that of most of their push feed counterparts. I don't consider that difference to be something inherent in the design. I suspect that it probably has more to do with the price point to which the CRF actions are being made.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Members/Gentlemen I am impress by the insight you guys have regarding knowledge about the qualities /properties of the Mauser action. This information is much appreciated since it gives me even more insight on the 98 Mauser action. Thank you kindly, I really appreciate the time and effort you guys took to provide me with excellent answers. It really is a joy to be a member on this forum, thank you kindly again...

Kind Regards

Gert Odendaal
South Africa

 

[Bullet bumper]

If one is using a CRF type rifle as a single shot, I don't see the extractor as an issue. As you mentioned, the extractor can be beveled to allow it to snap over the cartridge rim. The only CRF rifles that even have that issue are the military mausers. Commercial mausers, Ruger 77's, and Winchester Model 70's can be used in push feed mode with no issues. If one has concerns along those lines, there is such a thing as a single shot follower available for mausers. Moreover, even if one loads rounds far longer than magazine length, one only has to snap the rear of the round into the magazine with the bullet laying on the feed ramp and close the bolt. It is not appreciably slower to do that than it is to just drop the round in the action.

The whole CRF extractor causing alignment thing is a theoretical argument I have heard many times without ever having seen anyone produce proof that such a thing actually happens. The same argument can be made about the plunger ejector in a push feed action, but that tends to get glossed over.

If there is any valid argument to be made regarding superior accuracy in push feed actions, it has to do with the fact that the push feed actions are generally tubular in nature, which makes precise machining and concentricity of the barrel, bolt, and receiver easier to achieve.

The rest of the arguments are marketing hype designed to paper over the fact that the push feed actions were engineered to be produced more cheaply, not for greater strength or accuracy. In a production rifle, it is questionable whether any of the theoretical design advantages of a tubular action are even realized. As evidence of this, I point to the lengths Savage went to in their action design to make precise machining less important in the performance of the rifle (the floating bolt head is a good example of this).

One reason I stopped buying push feed rifles is that I found the fit, finish, and overall quality of workmanship on CRF actions to be superior to that of most of their push feed counterparts. I don't consider that difference to be something inherent in the design. I suspect that it probably has more to do with the price point to which the CRF actions are being made.

When I say , " in a single shot " I mean a single shot action , no magazine . no place for any extra follower . I said you would not want CRF in a single shot . We were disgussing Mauser 98's .
I totally agree about the Savage though .

 

[mrbigtexan]

I agree that you should stay with 3006 length magnum cartridges. 1000 meters is very achievable with a mauser. 500 meters for hunting will be a walk in the park for a mauser. I do agree with using a commercial action, it would be less of a headache, and the steel is better. I believe a 30-06 or 280 would serve you well also for hunting at 500, targets at 1000.

 

[shortgrass]

When I say , " in a single shot " I mean a single shot action , no magazine . no place for any extra follower . I said you would not want CRF in a single shot . We were disgussing Mauser 98's .
I totally agree about the Savage though .

I have a single shot, solid bottom commercial Mauser '98. It works as a CRF. Drop the round in to the action and as the bolt closes the rim rides up and under the extractor. Works about the same as it would if feeding a round from a Mauser with a magazine.

 

[Bullet bumper]

I have a single shot, solid bottom commercial Mauser '98. It works as a CRF. Drop the round in to the action and as the bolt closes the rim rides up and under the extractor. Works about the same as it would if feeding a round from a Mauser with a magazine.

Some might ride up and under the claw but many don't do it reliably . Using a purpose built single shot is different to using a magazine and dropping a round on as a single shot . I think the purpose built single shot may have the round starting in a similar position to a round in a magazine .
They will do it but it is still risky as I have seen broken extractors . It most likely already has a modified claw which helps . Mine is modified and will do it no worries but it is still not as easy as a purpose built push feed .
It's not working as a CRF if it clipping over the rim on chambering , then it's a push feed . If it rides up into the extractor claw as you close the bolt then that is good but mine will not if it's just dropped in on the magazine follower.
Push it into the magazine and it's CRF .
It's no big deal as I can just clip in a single round each time and push into the blind magazine with my thumb but the problem is my Mauser has two barrels one in 243 and one in 30-06 , now the magazine is for the 30-06 so with the 243 in it there is more front space in the mag so it tends to not want to feed as well as the 30-06 does. The 243 works better one round at a time but sometimes I just push feed .

 

[65WSM]

What makes the Mauser 98 so great as a hunting rifle?

Is it the long spring extractor and blade ejector? The Model 70, Montana 99 and Dakota actions all have these. SAKO even went to a blade ejector on their "no compromise" Model 85 which confirms its value. I like the Model 70 safety that locks the firing pin. This is available for the Mauser 98 but it is an added expense.

Mauser 98 triggers will have to be replaced with aftermarket.

Mauser 98 military actions will have to have the bolt modified for scope use. I own fine examples of cut and welded bolts that represent fine Gunsmith work. How many of the newer generation of AR and 1911 gunsmiths can actually weld like this today?

I worked one Summer at Arnold Arms and saw many Mauser 98 military actions and only a handful of commercial ones. I disassembled hundreds of military Mausers that summer. All of the Military actions need to be drilled and tapped for scopes. Most of what I saw were 3 hole taps for one piece windage bases. Many were poorly centered. My scopes are getting larger, longer and heavier. I like more screws holding the scope and larger ones holding the base. Old windage mounts are great for 7mm Mauser cartriges but 7mm Remington Magnum or 7mm Ultramagnum would destroy these scope mount designs.

Most reamers for cartridges suitable for Military Mauser magazines are "generous" and not suitable for long range work. 7mm Mauser, 6.5 X 55 Swede, 257 Roberts, etc. Even 243 Winchester SAAMI off the shelf reamer is not as tight as the 6mm Remington.

The Mauser 98 action was ahead of its time. Cartridges had not caught up to the actions then. Primers were much less uniform and not to mention corrosive. The firing pin of the Mauser 98 was designed to provide more energy than modern actions of today. My beautiful 1970s MacMillian built, Santa Barbra Mauser has a wonderful barrel and is bedded to a fiberglass stock that fits me with a big scope. I love it, but the lock time is glacial.

 

[benchracer]

What makes the Mauser 98 so great as a hunting rifle?

Is it the long spring extractor and blade ejector? The Model 70, Montana 99 and Dakota actions all have these. SAKO even went to a blade ejector on their "no compromise" Model 85 which confirms its value. I like the Model 70 safety that locks the firing pin. This is available for the Mauser 98 but it is an added expense.

The OP asked about the '98's because of limited availability of other action types in South Africa, where he lives.

Mauser 98 triggers will have to be replaced with aftermarket.

That is also the case with most off-the-shelf commercial rifles. Most Remington builds involve an aftermarket trigger. The custom Remington clones use aftermarket triggers as a matter of course. Replacing the trigger is hardly something unique to a '98 mauser. The trigger on a current production commercial mauser is fully adjustable and does not need to be replaced.

Mauser 98 military actions will have to have the bolt modified for scope use. I own fine examples of cut and welded bolts that represent fine Gunsmith work. How many of the newer generation of AR and 1911 gunsmiths can actually weld like this today?

Regardless of the action being built upon, a good rifle smith is first and foremost a competent machinist. ANY rifle smith should be selected with care. The AR and 1911 parts changers who call themselves gunsmiths would not be allowed anywhere near my rifles, regardless of the make of the action.

I worked one Summer at Arnold Arms and saw many Mauser 98 military actions and only a handful of commercial ones. I disassembled hundreds of military Mausers that summer. All of the Military actions need to be drilled and tapped for scopes. Most of what I saw were 3 hole taps for one piece windage bases. Many were poorly centered. My scopes are getting larger, longer and heavier. I like more screws holding the scope and larger ones holding the base. Old windage mounts are great for 7mm Mauser cartriges but 7mm Remington Magnum or 7mm Ultramagnum would destroy these scope mount designs.

Every mauser I own wears a picatinny style rail. It is no more difficult to fit a picatinny type rail than it is to fit the old style bases. I have drilled and tapped several of them myself. The end product turned out to be straight enough that very little windage adjustment was required during boresighting. The same cannot be said of the Remington 700's I have owned, which were/are so crooked the only mounts I could use on them were the old style windage mounts.

As for 7mm RUM, that is a cartridge that I wouldn't try to put in any mauser short of a CZ 550/BRNO 602.

Most reamers for cartridges suitable for Military Mauser magazines are "generous" and not suitable for long range work. 7mm Mauser, 6.5 X 55 Swede, 257 Roberts, etc. Even 243 Winchester SAAMI off the shelf reamer is not as tight as the 6mm Remington.

I guess that depends on where you get your reamers. A "tight neck" reamer is fine for a benchrest rifle, but is neither needed nor particularly desirable in a hunting rifle. My 6.5x55 will easily refute your contention that the reamers in such chamberings are not suitable for long range work. When I have encountered issues with generous chambers, they were invariably in original military barrels.

The ONLY chambering issue I have ever had in a commercial barrel was with a 22-250 chamber that had wildly excessive freebore. I am still not sure if it was the leade angle of the reamer used or if it was the short chamber cut when the barrel was made. I stopped buying PTSC barrels and had a new chamber cut. The problem went away.

My beautiful 1970s MacMillian built, Santa Barbra Mauser has a wonderful barrel and is bedded to a fiberglass stock that fits me with a big scope. I love it, but the lock time is glacial.

Slow lock time is one of the mauser weaknesses that can be trimmed, but not eliminated. Still, I have not found it to have a measureable effect from the bench or in the field.

 

[biff's reloading]

im not nearly as well read as most of you, but i just thought i would try to add to the discussion with a couple pics of my rifle. its not a high dollar build like some on here, but its what i had to start with, and its the best shooting rifle ive ever been behind. i single shot/snap feed every round. if i do my part, its a .3" gun at 200 yards, 2" at 800. for less than 1000 bucks, i have a rifle i can reliably kill any animal on the continent to 1200 yards. i admit though, you cant buy the parts to replace it for that, but with plenty of scrounging and a tight budget, it can be done. i have always had a soft spot for mausers. i just think they are beautiful. maybe not the best for this or that, but im proud to have a perfect piece of history. these pics were from last year when it was a 308. ive since gotten rid of the fugly butt plate, and had the rechamber and brake done.
commercial FN, set trigger, douglas 26" 1:10, 6-18 nikon, and a walnut stock. its chambered in 300 ultra with a jp cooley brake.

 

[Bullet bumper]

That is a nice looking gun . It just shows what you can do with a Mauser action .
They are more accurate than many believe they can be .
I am still amazed at the performance of my basically unaccurised 100 year old Mauser action . How many 100 year old cars could still compete with modern cars ? NONE that I know of . Wilhelm and Paul Mauser and the other brothers who were all gunsmiths were very clever people . Some might say Paul was a genius.

 

[luv long range]

Depending on the year made and facility it was made at you might have a gem or a nightmare.Towards the end of the war ,the guns were made by prisoners and slave labor.Lots of imperfections were built in to the rifles.All documentation was destroyed for these weapons so you are hard pressed to find info on them.

 

[specweldtom]

The MK X Yugo (and it's many variants) commercial large ring '98 is a strong, well made action, nicely finished, and can stlll be found on donor rifles for under $500. They have a good trigger (with side safety), modern metallurgy, third safety lug, good bolt handle shape, and are drilled and tapped for 6-48 base screws. They can easily handle standard length magnums and pressures.

I would not use one for .378 Wby based cartridges or pressures, or the other large overbore calibers, however, one of the variants is a "Whitworth" that was chambered for .300 H&H and .375 H&H. Many standard length rifles were chambered in .458 Win Mag also.

In the '70's I shot a 7 Rem Mag "Any/Any Rifle" built on a MK X with a Shilen 29" barrel that was a laser at 1000 yds. At 300 yds, it would put (5) 168gr Matchkings into one hole when I could.

Set up with a premium barrel, good concentric chamber, a quality stock, and good scope, they can be phenomenally accurate. Not benchrest, but better than most of us can shoot.

For the boomers, a CZ 550M Would be a very good choice. It is a BIG, strong action with 3.9" inside mag well length.

Good hunting,

Tom