Baby Muscle brake test/ Great American 338

[hammertyme]

Pitbull

SO sorry you have such a powerful axe to grind. Maybe you can post a picture of one of Kirby's brakes so we can all see the similarities.

Now this brake idea came about in 91 or 92 by a machinst friend of mine who made one and only one for a 50BMG. In 1998 I had all the brakes in my hand. They made and installed a brake. SHot the gun in which the concussion cleared everything from the table including hats and hearing protection. Ears rang for several days! SO back to the drawing board. The next brake was designed with the first port closest to the shooter set at a 90 degree to the bore to shear off the back blast from the four other ports which were set at 35 degrees to the rear.

1. I have never made a brake one, like pictured in any of these photo's.

2. I have a friend that has a program in which I asked him to scale down a Barrett 50BMG brake to fit my handcannon application. Requirements were representative of the brakes sitting on the shelf in my friends shop.

3. I sent the original and other cad drawings to Jim See who has had and installed Kirby's brakes. He tells me that there is no comparison!

4. I purchased a couple of Kirby's brakes,Hollands brakes and a number of other manufacturers brakes along with a $225. Barrett brake and had all sent to the shop (Different friend)in Idaho where they were all tested on my 338 X378 handgun. The report was- Very Severe backblast on short barrels. He did like the Holland brake. It is currently being used as is Kirby's big pain killer brake on 338 X 378 Improved rifles.

5. SInce I have never had one of Kirby's brakes in my hand it would be really hard for me to duplicate it. I can very easily prove what I have said to be true.

I am told that the inside of the muscle brake is where the major difference is from other brakes. I would not know as besides my own made brakes, Vias and Scott Nulls brakes and one Holland quick discharge I have never seen or used another brake. SO if you are crying foul? If I have never made one. If I have never had one in my hand? How is it you are calling me a copycat?? OH, forgot something, I pay for the brakes and their installation just like everyone else.

Hope this helps Pit.

Neal

 

[Coyboy]

Pitbull, The PK and the Muscle are 2 totally different brakes.

Kirby's brake has baffles that angle back much more agressivly then the 2 angled ports on the Muscle brake. Thats because if you have never noticed He makes some very large custom cartriges that require some pretty extreame recoil reduction. The disadvantage to the extreame angled ports is alot of concussion and blast to the shooters position.

Kirbys brake cosmetically is designed around those angled ports, thus the squared off look on the barrel side of the brake.

The Muscle brake is designed to shear off the blast and concussion from the shooter. and it works like no other brake out there in this regaurd. Shoot the two side by side and the difference is night and day.

I'll give you the fact that Kirbys brake has the ability to reduce recoil more than the Muscle brake. But I didn't work with Neal to design the most efficent brake, I worked with him to come up with an EFFECTIVE brake that is COMFORTABLE for the shooter in EVERY regaurd, and cosmetically looks pleasing to MY EYE, that being the most important part of the Muscle brake and why when it is finished looks like the above picture Neal was so kind to post.

Now in your simplistic aproach to this thread, you think some one copied someone else product based on what?
that both brakes are designed to screw on a barrel?
that the brake has holes in both ends?
that one side is threaded?
that the brake has two flat sides? ((shameless plug) the 3 port and new mini muscle brake are both available without flats to accomidate large dia. barrels)
So please explain the similarities

 

[Coyboy]

so now with the top ports it is a full blown copy of kirby's painkiller

Nice assumption, The "top ports" in the Muscle brake are not round center holes like the small PK, they are slots coming in from the sides, basically a wrap around extension of the side port rolling over the top. These werre introduced to reduce muzzle flip on 7lb. handguns with a center grip. I have not used them on any rifles because muzzle flip has not yet been an issue with this brake on rifles.

 

[pitbull320]

I have to say it looks very close to me the only thing that looks different is the rear port on the muscle brake is straight and the painkiller is angeled and the painkiller has the ports in the top and that's it.

My next question is how long doe's it take to make a brake the one post says you started in 1992 almost 20 years to make a muzzle brake that seems a little long to me and especially not to see or hear of it until this past year and correct me if I'm wrong but in a previous post on the muscle brake even Kirby made a comment on it.

I'm not try to grind an axe it just looks very close and it interests me on how it come about I have Kirby's painkiller and I have friends that have your muscle brake and next to each other they look the same to me

 

[trueblue]

pitbull,
what difference does it make. might want to get off your high horse, sit back and relax. might learn a thing or two.

 

[hammertyme]

Sometimes we get caught up in an idea whether it be from loyalty (good) or we take something way to far and we find ourselves in a position without support and we start grasping at straws. This thread was highjacked from the original intent of me just sharing the joy of painlessly being able to shoot these very large calibers without getting headaches from the back blast. I do what I do for my own needs and seldom get to share the mind set of what goes into my projects. But at this point I say okay. The brake concept came about when Barrett first did their brake concept. Two guys (one my friend) said hey lets make a bullpup version with an 18" barrel. Since it was done under a company perspectous they worked in the shop and also in my friends personal shop at night. One gun was made and apparently was marketed. Several proto-type brakes were made. They ended up going with the Barrett and never made another brake!! Below is a picture of the Barrett on my 460 X 510 handgun.

I called friends who make brakes all over the country for their opinion of what brake I should put on ELE. Several including Ron Bartlett at Vias said Barrett without a doubt was the best recoil reducing system on the market. AFter shooting ELE a bunch I new that I had to go another route or sell the gun.

Now look at the Barrett Arrowhead brake in the picture. Think in terms of semetry. When you apply the arrowhead into a cad program and with my instructions to my friend the cad programmer and reduce the Barrett you get an exact representation of what Kirby's brake looks like! That can't be I said because the back rake of the ports wasn't need at 35 or so degrees. Did not like the square back and the absolute inability to radius the brake into the barrel diameter.
It is pretty obvious to those that want to see the differences what those difference are! As Jim said, nothing the same about the two be it inside or out. Including the NO top port system AND the top port system! Not even the top porting system looks like either Darryl Holland or Kirby's.

Now lets look at the top porting which even with the third generation looks nothing like Kirby's or Daryl's.

It has been fun and have really enjoyed sharing with you pitbull. For the most part Jim and a very few others have heard this story. I will say that my 90 degree first port concept wasn't mine. But as it set dormant on someone's shelf for 20 years, I am laying claim to it now because it took my headaches away and stopped me eating powder exhaust.

Have a nice day.

Neal

 

[trueblue]

thanks for sharing, Neal. Keep it up, enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Only thing I will add here is that the port angle on my PK brakes is NOT as aggressive as the Muscle brake which is set at 35 degrees. In fact my ports are set at 30 degrees so what has been said is not correct. My PK brakes do not have a more aggressive back rake angle on the ports, in fact they are less aggressive.

As far as muzzle blast comparision, I find this a little interesting. I designed my PK with larger port volume for the specific purpose of slowing the escaping muzzle gas which greatly reduces the intensity of the muzzle blast. This also reduces the brakes effectiveness at reducing felt recoil.

To counter that, I made the brakes a wide slab design to increase, dramatically increase the surface area of the parition walls in my PK brakes. The wide slab design also dramtically focuses the direction of the escaping muzzle gas which, to the shooter offers a much wider protection cone from the muzzle blast. It is more directionally focused to the sides so if your next to a PK, you will get lit up but if your behind one, they are much less obnoxious they any other parition style brake I have tested including the one being talked about.

My slim version is much smaller in diameter and looks VERY similiar to the Muscle, much more so then the standard PK but I am certainly not saying they are the same as there are internal features to the PK that are not in the Muscle and that makes them very different.

On big handguns I have also tested head to head pretty much every brake out there against my PK brakes. I have never found one that compared anywhere near to my big 5 port PK which was designed for the 408 CT based wildcats in rifles but works very well in very large handguns, in fact with my 338 AX. We can drive a 300 gr SMK to 2700 fps or even more and use rifle scopes with full field of view. For handguns I machine reverse "V" ports on the first three partitions for muzzle jump control which is not needed on my big rifles.

The only reason I made this post was not to compare the two brakes, only to offer correct information concerning my PK brakes which I did not feel was being protrayed accurately and I felt it should be to offer a fair discription of my brake first hand.

The Muscle brake is a fine brake, the PK brake is a fine brake, both greatly reduce recoil, both are loud, any brake that is effective at reducing recoil dramatically will be loud. To say one is any quieter then another is very hard for me to swallow as I would like to know how this is measured. I would dare say I have tested as many or more different style muzzle brakes as anyone and in all honesty, I have never seen much difference in the "Loudness" of any of the muzzle brakes. Only difference i have noticed is the "Slap" on the forhead and my PK in its wide standard design is as good as any at greatly reducing this slap from the muzzle blast.

Do not wish to start a debate and have no desire to add anymore to this post as its not mine, only purpose was to offer accurate information on my Painkiller muzzle brakes which was not being accurately discribed.

I wish only the best luck to anyone else making fine products which all of these are.

 

[Coyboy]

Kirby, My apologies, when Neal was reffering to the 35 degrees, I'm not sure if he is reffering to the Barret or not. The Muscle brake has port angles of 20 degrees.

Sorry for the confussion. I do agree with the premiss of your post. Our brakes are different, effective, and quality products to chose from is a good thing for the customer.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Agreed, good luck with your business!