Article On "How To Deal With Long Range Skeptics"

Len Backus

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Keith Sollenburger (TheSollyLama) sent me proposed text for an article on the above topic. This topic is so important that I told Keith we would first discuss it here as a group. He is now a member of the Guild so he will participate in this discussion.

I'd like to have a big picture discussion of the topic. in other words, without getting into too much detail in your responses, what are we really trying to accomplish with such an article posted prominently on this website?

Try to bullet point your responses, please. Short, concise.

I will place his text separately in the next reply box.
 
Dealing with skeptics of long range hunting.....

In hunting circles, few topics are as controversial as taking game at long range. Most of the arguments made against taking game at extended range play the 'ethics' card right away. While there is certainly some validity to arguments made by the opposing view, by and large they are not hard to address and rebuke. Few stand up to actual examination.

Long distance hunting is merely another specialized form of taking an animal the same way muzzle loading and archery are. It's more than just the hunt, the method of take itself is every bit as much a part of the experience as the actual kill.

Like being an effective archer, the long distance shooter learns an entire set of skills specific to the task, equips himself properly for the hunt, and most of all makes his or her own judgment call of whether the shot is good based on one's own equipment and personal limitations.

One's own skill, and the limitations of specific gear is too subjective and varied to simply toss out blanket yardage for what is an 'ethical' shot. If the round will deliver enough energy to dispatch an animal quickly, and the shooter is up to the task, then the shot is ethical. What other people are capable (or not) of shooting is irrelevant.

If you are going to shoot at long ranges, chances are good that you are already familiar with shooting at lesser ranges. Likewise, odds are that you know a thing or two about the mechanics of what's happening in a long range shot. Few archers simply walk out to the woods and attempt to kill animals without investing in the knowledge specific to shooting an arrow. The same holds for the long range shooter. The long range shot is not merely a cop out to getting closer, but a calculated, considered effort that is easily as rewarding as the bagging of the game.

All shots taken from any field situation, are going to be less than perfect. While a lot of hunters use that as their reason for not taking exacting shots- the long range hunter doesn't look to excuse poor shooting and instead dedicates his efforts to being a better shot rather than one that relies on close range to 'hedge his bets.'

No one can control conditions in the field, and the factors to consider are far more complex than simply equating long range with more environmental factors than other types of shots. The archer, for example has a good chance of an arrow going totally off course given a hit on a twig. Even at 20 yards the archer has an increased chance of a miss, or worse, wounding shot given simple brush.

Back east and in the south with thick timber and short range shots- most hunters think nothing of shooting at a deer in brush. Many argue over which round 'busts brush' best. The argument can be made that any shot through cover is less ethical than long range shooting. First, long range shooting essentially requires open air between the shooter and target. You just won't even see game at extended ranges behind even the lightest cover. Secondly, the long range hunter almost never takes a shot at anything he can't see all of simply because it's so far away, and you can usually also see what's beyond the target better as well. That alone is safer than shooting at anything half covered by a tree with branches and ground clutter in the bullets path, regardless of the range.
It's no less ethical to send a bullet through 600 or more meters of air than it is to fire a bullet through brush at 100 meters and hope for the best.

The possible 'what if' factor rises due to any number of inputs, with simple distance to target being far from the most dramatic. It is simply not an adequate understanding of the topic to bleat that distance equals less ethical shooting.

Being similar to archery in that it takes much more practice and investment in time, and frankly, can be quite gear intensive, the person interested in long distance hunting is not your typical hunter that bought the base model rifle/scope combo on sale at a sporting goods chain. He's usually someone with a stronger interest in shooting than average hunters. Someone that isn't going to zero that weapon then stick it in the closet until hunting season comes around, then put it back in the closet until next year. Much like muscle car fanatics obsess over their vehicles, the long range shooter sees his rifle as a precision instrument, not just one that is adequate. As opposed to letting the rifle limit his shooting, the long range hunter typically gets high end equipment then further modifies it specifically to make it perform better. Then concentrates on the skill set that sniper quality shooting requires.

Reloading goes hand and hand with extreme range shooting so you'll rarely see the long distance hunter buying his ammo out of the sale bin at the local gas station or still carrying the same shells he bought a box of in 1986. Many of the modified rifles so common in long range hunting are more accurate at long range than the guns taken out to hunt by those that oppose it are capable of at short range. Long range shooting just isn't very 'entry level' and therefore is usually undertaken by people dedicated to the art.

Given the right gear, it's ultimately up to the shooter. It's that way with all forms of hunting. There are far more half drunk rednecks in the woods looking to shoot deer every year at close range than dedicated long range hunters that take questionable shots.

Of course there are people that take shots that they shouldn't. People that will shoot well beyond their or their gear's ability. But is that really a dedicated long range hunter or is that an 'average' hunter taking shots he's not capable of? Long range shooting doesn't have any higher incidence of irresponsible shooting than any other hunting. There are bad apples in every aspect of hunting, and perhaps it's even less so among hunters that choose specialty type hunting like archery or long distance shooting simply because they demand more dedication to be successful than basic- for lack of a better term- rifle hunting.

Remember that what constitutes 'long range' is subjective at best. Growing up in New England a 200 meter shot was considered 'wicked fah.' But in Colorado that just wont get the freezer filled with Antelope on the plains. So what is a long shot is certainly a regional consideration as well.
In the end, the ethics of a shot is determined by too many factors to merely slap an arbitrary distance on. Taking a long range shot is no less ethical than any other shot if you are within the parameters of the equipment and the shooter as a system. It is a totally individual measure. No one can slap a label on you that you don't earn. If you and your gear are capable, then the shot you take is ethical. You cannot control many factors that may or may not result in a miss, but no more so than any other shooter based on that individual's ability and the conditions the moment of the shot. The entire point of long range shooting is to minimize those variables rather than just accepting them and hoping being close makes up for not controlling those factors.

It's not about ego or whatever other ad hom attack the skeptics of long range hunting like to accuse us of anymore than it is for an archer to get 20 yards from game. We all do what interests us based on it feeding our ego to a degree. Of course the archer should be rightly proud of getting within spitting distance of wary game species. Equally the long range hunter should be proud of being rewarded for that investment in time and gear. There is no crime in pride, unless you're Amish. Those that oppose long distance shooting often try to paint long distance shooters as lesser hunters unable to stalk, but the long distance shooter can counter that simply with pointing to that hunter's lesser ability to shoot as accurately. Which ever you choose to agree with, there is no 'right' answer- only opinion.

Lastly, if you will permit me a personal moment, I am a disabled veteran. My mobility is impaired such that I have handicapped plates for my truck. It is increasingly difficult for me to simply get out to hunt, much less put a successful stalk on a wary animal. I cannot crouch and duck-walk for a hundred meters. I can't kneel or belly crawl to get in close to game. My legs aren't up to the task. If I can shoot that deer from one hill farther away, the chances of my stumbling about on bad knees and spooking game into the next county is reduced.

My eyes, however, are just fine, and time at the range practicing is not beyond my abilities. My days of jumping deer at 10 paces are simply over. For those with mobility issues, long range hunting may be the only realistic chance at filling the freezer. Investing in skill at shooting long distances is more worthwhile than stalking and scent elimination when you suffer from limited mobility.
As someone with a vested interest in the future of hunting, I do not bandy about accusations of unethical hunting lightly, as most opponents of long distance hunting are quick to do. Poaching is unethical. Hunting outside your designated game unit (if you are subject to them) is unethical. Training to take longer shots than is average for most hunters is not.

Instead of looking for yet another issue to divide hunters, should we not be supporting one another? Many opponents of long range hunting sound far too much like Jim Zumbo who only gave anti-hunters ammunition by calling AR style rifles terrorist guns and said they had no place in hunting.
Just as if we don't actually hunt with a bow, we do not bad mouth it. We accept that that method of take interests some people. It comes with it's own skill requirements, level of investment, and comes with it's own set of possible negative issues that participants need to deal with. As long as that hunter is capable and his equipment will get the job done, the method of take matters little.

And I promise you it matters not at all to the anti-hunters that live for statements coming from other hunters like how a type of weapon or type of hunting is unethical. Before you start agreeing with the anti-hunting lobby, for hunting's sake, you better measure your words and get informed on the issue. You owe it to hunting as something we may very well lose if we aren't vigilant, to do no less.
 
  • Ethics are a personel decision, no amount of information, equipment or technique will change a persons ethics.
  • Any legal method of take can be an ethical harvest and also an unethical harvest it is determined my the hunter.
  • If you show me and unethical long range hunter I'll show you an unethical short range hunter, they are the same person.
  • Did I forget to mention it is all about the hunter not the method?
  • I don't turn my nose up at anyone elses method of legal harvest or mad mouth them even if I don't understand or agree with it, I expect the same consideration in return.
  • The man who invented the first bow and arrow to replace his spear was looked upon as less of a man for not going hand to hand, in reality he was just smarter.
  • The ethical hunter practices with his tools, hunts legally, never shoots beyond their ability, looks for ways to better themselves as a hunter, passes on what they know to the next generation and has a true passion for the wild outdoors. The legal equipment or techniques they use do not enter into ethics.
 
what are we really trying to accomplish with such an article posted prominently on this website?

Shawn those are good points. But I'd like to start the replies by answering my quoted question, namely: What do we hope to accomplish by posting such an article?.

The second question then becomes the one you replied to, namely: what do we want to say in the article?

I may be too indirect in my approach but let's try it.
 
Len,
Keith wrote an interesting, well thought-out read BUT the bottom line is your primary question - do we really want that topic on LR Hunting at all. Some people have thinner skin than others and will jump to the defense. But, why should we be on the defense? I find that the more I see discussions about long range hunting and ethics the more I just don't give a ****. We are going to keep shooting long, I would rather devote my time to picking up good info to help my shooting and hunting.

I believe a lot of the guys who write negative stuff are simply incapable of shooting past 2 or 300 yards so nobody else should. They have no clue of the accuracy, confidence and challenges involved because they have never been there and never will. I just don't see any reason to take up any discussion with those type of peopel, waste of time.

Your call on putting the story up. I have been called on my writing about long range shooting a few times in letters to editors. I make one simple point, I shoot long because I can. I used that point a few times and got some nice support from guys who were not long range shooters.

I do not give a rat's-butt about other guys opinions, or their ethics, or their letters or crap they put on websites. Way more better things to do. Some of the guys who enjoy arguing might feel different. I see nothing gained by debating this with someone who knows diddly about our sport - or appearing to be on the defensive by even mentioning the topic.
 
Len,

Guess I kind of missed what you wanted. I tend to agree that putting up an article like this will draw more fire and not accomplish much. The members have been there so you'll be telling them nothing new. People who opose LRH probably won't read it to begin with. The article is good but you may not want to post it. I too tend to find myself in the "not giving a crap" about what the uneducated, close minded ones have to say anymore. It truly boils down to "those that can do and those that can't complain".
 
I tend to agree with Ian. I wrote up about a page but it came down to that I am going to do what I am going to do. I do not post my stories elsewhere and I quit going to 24 hr Campfire because I would get too mad.

I would say just let it go. I think the article would need massive work to be presentable anywhere and it would wind up 20 pages long.
 
Thank you for your consideration. Let me say that this version of the article was MUCH rougher, but I can still see a couple grammatical errors in the article I need to address.
I believe it addressed pretty much all the points Shawn listed, but perhaps not as clearly as I could.
By all means please point to any specific correction that needs made. My biggest problem in writing is making it too conversational, and often things get lost in print that sounded better in my head.
For example I'm not sure about the reference to New England and the "wicked fah" bit emulating the accent. It may just not work in print, especially for folks not familiar with how New Englanders pronounce certain words.
The entire part about my limited mobility is also fairly disposable. While it's a valid point in my opinion, it may not play to a wider audience. I considered dropping that part already, but wanted to make some personal connection to the reader. But it ended up taking two paragraphs of space.
Also- I need to massage my bit on not bad mouthing types of hunting like archery just because we personally may not indulge in it. It just seemed ackward. I'll do some touch up on the article this weekend, then repost it here with corrections for another review.

Again, I appreciate your consideration and your constructive criticism. I really do want to put out a quality article.
 
You just won't even see game at extended ranges behind even the lightest cover. Secondly, the long range hunter almost never takes a shot at anything he can't see all of simply because it's so far away, and you can usually also see what's beyond the target better as well.

For starters this is not correct. You try very hard to depict us as some higher form of life and we are not. We are individuals who have many different value systems. I went to Quantico in the rain and fog today to shoot F-class (which was cancelled) to try to improve my skills but I deliberately operate on the extreme margins of my skills when hunting because it is the challenge of making the hard shot that makes it fun for me. Lots of people want to stay within their comfort zone but I am not one of them. Most people just want to kill more animals but that is the last item on my priority list nowdays.

Ridgerunner made a post last year about having a bullet deflected while shooting through a treetop in West Va and he had to shoot again to finish the animal. I posted two videos from Boyd Heaton a year or so ago that shows him shooting through tree limbs on both shots.

Many of us make judgements on "acceptable risk" of a bad result. Many of us will get frustrated with the wind and finally after several days of passing on shots finally let one go when we shouldn't (read my Poison Spider antelope story). We are simply a bunch of humans who come together on this forum to learn more. It does not make us good people or bad people.

That is just one set of thoughts I have.


I do not type this up to insult you but to clarify why I do not believe the article is right and ready for prime time.

I do not go looking for a fight on other forums. I am happy with the people here and the knowledge base here. I get angry easily, therefore, it is best for me to just hang out on this forum where the rules are clear.
 
"How to deal with long range skeptics"

in other words, without getting into too much detail in your responses, what are we really trying to accomplish with such an article posted prominently on this website?
  • To put an article about this subject on this site would inevitably lead to an "ethics" discussion because, to start with, the article would be the opinion of an individual. I believe that "skeptics" and "ethics" go hand in hand when discussions of this type take place on the web. This would immediately turn into an ethics and "what is right and what is wrong" debate because you would be dealing with skeptics. In helping the skeptics the discussion would have to involve range and killing animals. That would immediately start an ethics argument. I have seen it happen many times on different forums.
  • If there are people that ask questions here, simply answer them. If they need help then we can help them but initiating a thread and discussion of this type would only turn into a big electronic fist fight.
  • If you want to know what would happen, go to the Campfire and post something about true LONG RANGE stuff on their long range forum and then sit back and watch. The short range guys flock to that forum, get up on their little soapboxes and spout off about how unethical, unskilled and lazy we long range guys are. They then run back to the safety of their short range forums and beat their chests.
  • I agree with Ian and Buffalobob. If it was up to me I would not do it but it is up to Len and he can make the decision.
  • I believe that we would probably have people register here just to argue the subject and spout off about the unethical long range hunters.
  • This web site is well known on the web and word spreads quickly. Start anything that even smells of ethics and the crowds will gather. We have had it happen here before where someone starts to argue about long range vs. short range stuff and pretty soon the fight is on.
  • Why deliberately start a discussion dealing with skeptics when we could spend all of that time and energy dealing with, and helping all of the new guys that are posting here now. They have a positive attitude about long range stuff and want to learn. Help them and our numbers grow. When our numbers grow, comparatively, the skeptics number will decrease. I would far rather spend my time an energy helping a new guy than arguing with somebody that can not hit a pie plate at 100 yards that wants to tell me what I should or should not do.
  • This forum is almost 100% long range guys and I would like to keep it that way. Why invite the skeptics into your living room?
  • This is just my opinion and regardless of the outcome of the decision about helping skeptics, I will still be here and participate in the best stie around.;)
 
geez, do you guys want articles or not? I wrote one based on the home page request to do just that.
First, I invited specific criticism. Thus far I've recieved very little of that. Like grammatical errors or obviously faulty logic.
Mostly it just sounds like no one really cares to address the issue. I wasn't writing it to avoid 'electronic fist fights' because those are already happening. My goal was to arm the defender of long range hunting with logical counterpoints to the ravings of those that can't or won't, shoot as far.
Just 'knowing' you're right doesn't pass skeptical or logical muster.
Most important is to equate long range shooting with other, accepted, methods of take. Few rifle hunters look down on archery and accept it as a valid form of hunting- despite that it almost always requires tracking an animal that died much more slowly than a good rifle shot is intended to do. The idea of following a blood trail is exactly the sort of thing that replulses non-hunters. It just SOUNDS blood thirsty and cruel.
And yet archery is a well accepted, even respected, method of take among hunters, even by those that do not bow hunt. That's all we need to achieve. Once long range hunting is just another common method of take, the people just looking to drive any wedge they can between hunters will have to look elsewhere for something to complain about.
My biggest concern isn't with those that oppose this, or anything other form of take. It's when people quit caring to even defend something they say they are passionate about.
In any topic that you apply critical thinking to, there are going to be people that just cling to their badly constructed arguments. It's not those people that you debate with. Their own ignorance precludes them from contributing and often they do more to hurt their cause than help it. My goal is to at least help avoid those people in our ranks by arming them with counterpoints instead of responding with; "oh yeah?!"
But for every closed minded hunter convinced he and only he can possibly shoot a deer at anything beyond 10 paces, there is another that may be on the fence, or at least looking for information about it. Perhaps they'd like to get into longer range shooting but have seen so much blather by those opposed to it.
The answer isn't to ignore it. Circle the wagons, plug our ears and just say we can't hear their criticism. Opponants to it sure aren't. They are very vocal, no matter how wrong they may be. I feel it's the least I can do to try to be an advocate for what I like doing.
Writing an article may or may not accomplish anything, but silence accomplishes nothing every time.
 
Keith

I don't know what the answer is yet, but perhaps I should have gotten this discussion out on the Writer's Guild table before I solicited an article.

The proposed title was "How To Deal With Skeptics" and I must say after reading the arguments above, I am starting to wonder if the full text of the article should in fact be: "Ignore them".

But let's discuss it further. A few guys have not weighed in yet, also.
 
I read through the article a few days ago... figured I'd think about it for a while.

Initially I thought it would be very nice to have a fine article that encompassed the thoughts of practiced long range hunters, something to point to as educational on a "this is what we're really about" level.

This article is as good as any I've read and presents well, I would refer to it as topically correct and had I the need to offer various defending views of long range hunting this would be a good article to include.

With regard to Len's question: "...what are we really trying to accomplish with such an article posted prominently on this website?" I believe Ian sums it up well in the short phrase "...why should we be on the defense?"

This IS the Long Range Hunting, I don't believe we should post articles that appear to be defending the manner in which we sometimes hunt. I do not sheepishly slink around this site nor do I feel the manner in which I hunt is wrong... I do not need to brandish a placard explaining that what I do is okay.

I do feel that this article has a place, its a fine example of one man's belief and experience as relates to hunting and the manner in which he does it.

I'd much rather read an article similar to this that relays one mans methods and experiences as merely the method and manner used... not couched in a defensive posture but moreso in an informative and educational posture.

I believe that with a little smithing and perhaps couched toward a friendly audience this article may be a good addition on this site. I'm not too much of a literary type I believe I'd start the article in this light... (as taken from the article as presented).

"... if you will permit me a personal moment, I am a disabled veteran. My mobility is impaired such that I have handicapped plates for my truck. It is increasingly difficult for me to simply get out to hunt, much less put a successful stalk on a wary animal. I cannot crouch and duck-walk for a hundred meters. I can't kneel or belly crawl to get in close to game. My legs aren't up to the task. If I can shoot that deer from one hill farther away, the chances of my stumbling about on bad knees and spooking game into the next county is reduced.

My eyes, however, are just fine, and time at the range practicing is not beyond my abilities. My days of jumping deer at 10 paces are simply over. For those with mobility issues, long range hunting may be the only realistic chance at filling the freezer. Investing in skill at shooting long distances is more worthwhile than stalking and scent elimination when you suffer from limited mobility. "



Please remember, "It's easier to be a critic than an author", I know some effort went into this article and I hope I didn't offend.
 
Kiss

This site is for those who long range hunt, are considering long range hunting, trying to be better at long range hunting. Articles, info, and discussions reflect our acceptance and support of this form of hunting.

All parts of this site welcome those new to this form of hunting to get questions answered and support to be effective. Those that come to troll can get booted out.

I see no point in trying to 'justify' what we do. For those that I have conversed with, all seem to share the same respect for quick and humane harvesting of game whether at 10yds or 1000yds. Distance is irrelevant.

Neither is method.

Should we have a side/small article for quick tips to help us debate with those who disagree, sure. But there is little need to have a main article for this.

Would be like going to the Vatican website and having 'WHY we believe in the existance of God?" as their main home page article.

Really doesn't make alot of sense.

Jerry
 
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