Are three shot groups valuable?

[2buffalo]

Three shots in a row after cleaning no fouling shots no letting the barrel cool. Good to go. Anything more is OCD.

 

[Crusty Buck]

Took an old Rem 700 and had one of my rifle builders add a McM stock and a lightweight Brux bbl chambered in 300 RUM. Shot a few ho- hum groups with 200 ABs and then loaded three sets of 3 each 225 ELDs w/88 gr Retumbo at three different seating depths (I am not a ladder fan as seating depth has always been key for me). The second load was good.

So I loaded two more to make it five shots and fired the next day. Any guesses what the group below looked like after two more shots?

In my experience, the first shot warms up the barrel. Depending on the quality of the barrel, the next two may print differently. I know a guy who fires a warm up round before firing the next three for a three round engagement. For a better read, I prefer a 5 shot group. My two cents.

 

[2buffalo]

In my experience, the first shot warms up the barrel. Depending on the quality of the barrel, the next two may print differently. I know a guy who fires a warm up round before firing the next three for a three round engagement. For a better read, I prefer a 5 shot group. My two cents.

I have never understood this. Does he fire a warm up shot at an animal?

 

[bamban]

Gus Fisher and I spent some time when I was busy campaigning my 14s. This is another topic that Gus and I found a common ground on.... sighting in a hunting rifle, as I do close to the same process.

Carlos Hathcock Method of Sighting in a Rifle

Carlos had me Shoot 1x/day & record everything into a log book, the Rationale was that "How many shots do you think you are going to get at a deer?"

americanshootingjournal.com

 

[thomasbangs]

I have stated previously in post with similar questions or statements. I have shot many, many 3 shot groups that were cloverleaf or almost one hole only to have 4th and 5th shot out of group. This could be any number of problems, bedding, bullet seating/case neck pressure, primers, etc. Also 4 shots tight and one shot out could be shooter error. In MY opinion 5 shot groups gives one a better idea and one can base better opinions and go from there. The only time I shoot 3 shot groups is to verify previously established loads for my zero at different yardages. I also might mention among the various (many) calibers I shoot, I have a custom built 338-06 AI on a Mauser action that I can place 3 or 4 shots touching at 100 yds but have never place 5 shots in the small group, but I don't care, that has always been a one shot rifle at game. By the way during hunting season with the guns I am carrying for deer, elk, etc. I will go out in mid week and take one shot out of a cold barrel to check my zero.

 

[coyotemaster]

Took an old Rem 700 and had one of my rifle builders add a McM stock and a lightweight Brux bbl chambered in 300 RUM. Shot a few ho- hum groups with 200 ABs and then loaded three sets of 3 each 225 ELDs w/88 gr Retumbo at three different seating depths (I am not a ladder fan as seating depth has always been key for me). The second load was good.

So I loaded two more to make it five shots and fired the next day. Any guesses what the group below looked like after two more shots?

I don't know but it shoots anywhere near that when you bump up .2 and down .2 that would be my load. You'd likely be right in the center of a node- you could drop loads from a measure with confidence that it would be in the group.

 

[BlazerBeam]

A 3/4-1 minute magnum load will do whatever you need it to while hunting in almost all conditions at 400-500 yards and in. Further than that and wind calls will be more of a factor than 1/4 inch smaller groups at 100 yards. So….a guy can spend all of his weekends before a hunting season trying to shrink his 100 yard groups and get zero practice understanding what his rifle does at different distances in varying winds and then miss an animal when the times comes to shoot an animal at 800 yards in a complex wind situation, or he can call a 5/8" or 3/4" 100 yard load good and get proficient at real world hunting shooting.
I will admit that I used to be the first example, but have begun to realize the extreme value to being the second example when it comes to trying to accomplish my own personal goals, which are to consistently harvest mature animals at any reasonable distance that the opportunity presents itself

 

[LRNut]

Went to pot didn't it. I don't understand why people feel their hunting rifle must group like a PPC bench gun. Do you generally fire 6 shots at game?

I don't understand how folks who shoot long range fail to grasp basic statistics. That first group was under 1/4 inch. Does that mean my rifle is a quarter minute rifle? I don't think so. Seven shots over three days were under 1/2" - so I would call it that, but there are still going to be shots outside of 1/2 MOA; group size is normally distributed. The larger the sample size, the more confident you are in your conclusion - it has nothing to do with how many shots you fire at game. Whether you shoot one shot a day over five days or more into the same target, two three shot groups over two days, etc. all give you a better feel for what you rifle can do.

As for bench rest groups, I don't bother trying to bang steel with a rifle that won't put three to five shots inside 2.5" at 500 yards, let along shoot at game that far. My MN whitetail rifle on the other hand, could do as poorly as 2" at 100; I don't care because I have not shot a deer in northern MN past 100 yards in over 20 years.

 

[coyotemaster]

When they put three in a hole like that with the cold, fouled bore shot being one of them - you've found a great load. I've only had 2 rifles that I felt confident to be able to do that whenever.

I fully agree. That's a huge confidence builder. I've always heard 3 shots proves the rifle 5 shots proves the shooter, I'm inclined.to agree.with that as well.

 

[coyotemaster]

A 3/4-1 minute magnum load will do whatever you need it to while hunting in almost all conditions at 400-500 yards and in. Further than that and wind calls will be more of a factor than 1/4 inch smaller groups at 100 yards. So….a guy can spend all of his weekends before a hunting season trying to shrink his 100 yard groups and get zero practice understanding what his rifle does at different distances in varying winds and then miss an animal when the times comes to shoot an animal at 800 yards in a complex wind situation, or he can call a 5/8" or 3/4" 100 yard load good and get proficient at real world hunting shooting.
I will admit that I used to be the first example, but have begun to realize the extreme value to being the second example when it comes to trying to accomplish my own personal goals, which are to consistently harvest mature animals at any reasonable distance that the opportunity presents itself

You are 100% right especially with component scarcity. We had a retired army shooter who'd shot at Camp Perry and he always proclaimed.the same a 1" gun is always good enough. If you have time, money and the access to the yardage, its enjoyable to develop those bughole guns but probably superfluous for killing game.

 

[LRNut]

A 3/4-1 minute magnum load will do whatever you need it to while hunting in almost all conditions at 400-500 yards and in. Further than that and wind calls will be more of a factor than 1/4 inch smaller groups at 100 yards. So….a guy can spend all of his weekends before a hunting season trying to shrink his 100 yard groups and get zero practice understanding what his rifle does at different distances in varying winds and then miss an animal when the times comes to shoot an animal at 800 yards in a complex wind situation, or he can call a 5/8" or 3/4" 100 yard load good and get proficient at real world hunting shooting.
I will admit that I used to be the first example, but have begun to realize the extreme value to being the second example when it comes to trying to accomplish my own personal goals, which are to consistently harvest mature animals at any reasonable distance that the opportunity presents itself

Exactly BlazerBeam, and that was the thrust of my latter post. I spend way more time shooting in the wind than developing loads. Every day when I am at my CO place. First shot today was at 910 with the rifle mentioned above. I hit just above my 3" square with a 1 MOA hold but yesterday I called zero wind and hit 1 MOA right (maybe I should have looked through my spotting scope like I did today before calling it zero wind). Second shot today two hours later was at 760 with a 338 Lapua (that has a NF ATACR that is wonderful to judge mirage just before you shoot). This afternoon when the wind picks up more I will shoot at 620. And once per day I shoot at my 400 yard gong sitting with a 338 Win Mag over a BogPod stick. I wrap it up shooting 3 shots at 100 offhand with a .223, .243, or .30-06, which may not be great LR practice, but it is more practical when it comes to hunting.

I would also say if you only shoot long range at one location you will, over time become learn the little nuances of where you shoot. For example, maybe you shoot on a flat 1000 range where the wind blows the same at your target as it does at your location, but in the mountains it rarely does.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

I think 3 shot groups are good for a hunting rifle but to validate consistency I'll shoot 5 shot groups and once in a while if I feel cocky I'll shot a 10 shot group!
When I'm testing 22LR ammo to see what brand/type the rifle likes I always swab the bore then shoot 5 fouling shots with the new brand then shoot a 10 shot group at 50 yards. This gives me a good indication on what the rifle likes. My latest rifle prefers 3 different brands and will shoot them relatively the same with one always shooting just a tad better. There are 3 other brands that if that was all I had I'd say the rifle was junk. I can't say which here without my post getting deleted for rule violation but if you want to know, pm me.

 

[Rocketeer77]

Really? Why? My first group was under 1/4 inch. Does that mean my rifle always puts the first three in 1/4"? If it did my group would not have grown larger. Cold bore? In my experience really accurate rifles don't care about cold bore or hot bore (within reason).

The more shots in a group, the better estimate you have for that rifle's inherent accuracy.

Don't agree some rifles don't mind a hot barrel others do. Had a Sako that was fine and Ruger where after three shots it was terrible. Seen the same with other hunting rifles, there's no one size fits all.

 

[LRNut]

Three questions.
1) how many shots through the new Brux barrel.
2) how much time between shots in your grouping test.
3) were the ABs just ABs or were they ABLRs. I found them to perform differently.

The light barrel will heat up quickly in 300 RUM and will walk accordingly.

I had 30 down the tube when I fired the first three shot group. Shot it at gongs later that day (only 2 shots). After the "five shot group" I shot it at gongs and notice my velocities were higher, so that is when I decided to shoot two more to see if it had changed. One of my builders (he is at the top of the F class heap) said he doesn't even bother load dev until the tube has 100 rounds. I am recording the velocity of every shot; this last one was 3020; the highest has been 3040.

I have a 28N, a 338 Edge, a Lapua, and two RUMs in CO; I tend to rotate thru them (they all have about the same wind drift) but lately I have been shooting my Lapua more - it is too heavy for hunting so I might as well practice with that. It now has 608 rounds down the tube. I might order a new bbl soon; would be curious as to what other shooters have seen for barrel life.