Annealing with lead - process?

bigngreen, when you say once the brass is up to temp, do you mean before it goes in the lead or putting the brass into the lead and once it gets up to temp in the lead...then the lead rolls off?

After you put it in, if you dip anything into lead then pull it out before it has reached the melting point of the lead then it could stick.
I would think if a guy made a holder out of thin metal plate with holes in it so that the case could drop down but not through then you can dip a group in at the same time to an even depth.
I think we need Mikecr to through in on this since he does it. Most I know have tinkered with it and then bagged it.
 
Over on BPCR.net there are a few guys that use the process of lead dipping there cases to anneal them. One fellow made a holder with several holes in it as to hold multiple cases. It looked pretty much like a round disk with holes slightly larger then the case body spaced close enough to maximize the number of cases he would dunk at a time. Then again, these are straight walled cases with rims that hold the case in the device. Anyway, go over there and do a search for it and you should come up with annealing in lead.

Like others have said, and this cannot be repeated enough, NO WATER OR LIQUIDS AROUND THE HOT LEAD. That goes for sweating too, one drop in the molten lead and it EXPLOADS! Very Bad. Jeff
 
Chas1 the 'trick' to keeping lead from soldering to the case is a thin coating of MOBIL1.
If anyone leaves brass in lead long enough that lead will not 'stick', they have completely ruined their brass. They will have stress relieved the casehead.. And trust me, the lead still would have stuck. It would form a ring right at any point where it could.

When not at work, I'll outline my process. It is not a convenient operation like torching cases.
But it is dead perfect.
 
Mikecr, I and I'm sure some others look forward to reading about your process. Thanks.
 
Ok, my process isn't high tech or anything.
I bought a cheap lead melting pot, and melted in a few big fishing sinkers from Walmart.
This is not very pure lead, so contaminants form at the top during use. I skim this out with an old screwdriver.

With pot temperature adjustment, I use an old Omega thermocouple/indicator inserted in the lead, and have verified it's readings with a handheld laser thermometer(borrowed from work). I set temp at 675deg highest, which can drop as low as 600deg depending on the rate I'm dipping cases. With each dip some heat sinks away to the case, and the cheap built-in controller raises temp to compensate -with a bit of overshoot.
So my window is ~600 to 675deg.
This recrystallizes(stress relieves) the case both from the inside and outside, without risking annealing.

Before lead dipping I pour Mobil1 oil in a plastic ammo box and insert my cases mouth down into it. Then I stand the cases up on a nail board with paper towels to further drain. Nice thin layer.
I've tried many oils/coatings and Mobil1 is the only coating I know of that can withstand these temps long enough, and not seperate from the cases during dipping. Amsoil synthetic might work, I don't know. Don't even try the other synthetics available, they'll just burn off with a flame, and you'll pull an elephant foot out permanently affixed to your case.
Even Mobil1 eventually burns. But it takes a couple minutes, and is not an issue provided you keep the amount low(hence, thin layer).

To dip, I just pick up a case with a leather glove and very slowly lower into the lead(maybe 1/8" per sec), and once reaching my desired point, I raise the case back out at the same rate. Very slowly. The oil forms a ring that flows up the case away from the surface of the lead pool. This leaves just enough of something(surface oxidation?)on the brass to keep lead from soldering to it. The case feels dry afterwards, -where it contacted lead. But if you go too fast with inserting or removing, this coating fails to form and lead sticks.
For new 6.5WSSM brass I needed to form new body taper & shoulder angles on, I timed 45sec total dip for stress relieving to center of the case bodies. Slowly In/slowly out in 45sec. My wife helped me measure caseheads while doing so, and we get less than 200deg. Brass is unaffected below 450deg, so I'm confident in the control offered by lead dipping(over any other method). You could not easily go so far down a short case with a torch, without ruining it.
For simple neck/shoulder with normal thickness brass, you could probably hold the caseheads with your bare hand.
Completed dipping, I drop the cases in a pan of Citrisolv, or whatever degreasing agent provided for me in the kitchen. Then I tumble. The brass darkens only slightly where stress relieved. Less than factory discoloration.

People rule out lead dipping due to risks with fumes and the evil energy in that pot. They rationalize that torching is easier –therefore better? Why is easier always better??
Annealing begins ~900+degs. How do you know a torch has produced the correct temperature all the way through the brass, and not 1000deg on the outside and 200deg inside?

Anyway,,
I dip outside with a box fan behind the pot, pointed down wind. Lock away any cats or dogs beforehand, and just be careful not to dump the lead or drop anything into it. Pretty much the same precautions needed with a torch.
Overall, it's less painful than turning, and about the same pain as bumping.
I only stress relieve when needed. I know when I reach this point because I comparative measure & watch neck tension, and when bumps fail to consistently hold, it's time. With the minimum sizing I do, I can easily go 10 reloads before re-dipping. With the 6.5WSSM batch referenced I am just at this point(26 reloads).

That's it!
And with this you could apparently walk among Supermen..
 
That's awesome Mike! Thanks for writing it up!! I'll have to give it a try, I can let my dad cast bullets after I'm done with it at a lower temp.
It appears you do not quench, everyone I know quenches and some anneal every loading to 3 loadings and swear by flame but I'll give it a try.
Do you think that the lead method may help get a better job done especially with the thicker cases like the WSM's. I have not had good luck getting an even job done with them as I have with thinner cases.
 
People rule out lead dipping due to risks with fumes and the evil energy in that pot. They rationalize that torching is easier –therefore better? Why is easier always better??
Annealing begins ~900+degs. How do you know a torch has produced the correct temperature all the way through the brass, and not 1000deg on the outside and 200deg inside?
Absolutely great point, and it gets to my thoughts: lead temp can be controlled and for a given brand (in case they are materially different enough) you should be able to measure what the amount of time required for dipping per case would be in order to hit an annealing temperature window, each and every single time. Something like x temperature of the lead = Y amount of time the case needs to be submerged in the lead in order to hit Z temperature for annealing. A little bit of research and process refinement for each case and you are done. Welcome to a standardized and controllable process with adjustable and measurable variables.

Mike, thanks for pointing out too that the dip time IN and OUT, not just sitting time needs to be calculated in with the total immersion time.

Question: how far down in the lead do you go for a standard case, say a 243 or 25-06? Are you dipping past the shoulder or just the neck only?

Also, if you are talking about heating up the inside of the case you are removing the primers so that the lead goes up into it, correct? I have seen some articles that leave the primer in so that the lead does not go up into it (just like holding your finger on a straw and fluid does not flow into it until you let go). Thoughts on this would be welcomed. I kind of wonder if crap in the case would cause the lead to have a tendency to stick on the inside, making it better to clean before to reduce this risk.
 
Mikecr, you mentioned: very slowly lower into the lead(maybe 1/8" per sec), and once reaching my desired point, I raise the case back out at the same rate. I'm assuming that once the case has been dipped to the desired point that that is when the 45 seconds begins...correct?
 
My cases are deprimed and unsized/clean before oil/lead dipping. I allow lead to enter the case freely.
I only heat the areas needed. Necks for consistent tension,, shoulders for consistent headspacing.
The WSSM example is an extreme(as everything is with that brass).

My timing is no more precise than needed to prevent sticking lead. Slowly in allows the oil to leave one of it's additives on the brass surface as it expands away from heat, and slow in prevents quenching the lead so much that it could cool/solidify at contact points.
You will see the rate that brass temps match lead as you're going in.
The need to go slow out is just like the need to pull a sticker from a surface consistently -without shearing it.
I doubt any particular timing is needed to get thin brass to the temperature of the lead. After all, the brass is being heated from both inside and out.

When I get a chance, I'll post details of the pot & thermocouple I use.. There is probably something out there that integrates these for a reasonable cost. Better lead might offer advantages. Integrated ventilation(fume hood)..
If y'all think of improvements, or a better or easier way, I'd appreciate a discussion to that end.
Lately, I'm chomping at the bit to try my hand at inductive heating.
If it's as good as lead dip(tested & verified), and I can do it indoors,, that would be the ticket.
 
OK, I have tried Mike's process and it is good to go. Will hopefully get some pics up when I do it again. Some things I found:

-I put only enough lead into the pot to cover the neck and the shoulder (stop at the shoulder base) of my 30-06 cases (in my Lyman 20 pot this is 3 pounds). This allows me to start up faster and also allows me to put the case in until it hits the bottom of the pot so I dont have to watch how deeply dip it in - every case is extrememly consistent with respect to depth of immersion.

-I took the temp of my pot at its various settings both empty and with the lead. For my pot anyway, the settings are different when there is lead in there. It was also revealing as to the temperture overlap with each setting. This was important because I now know what temp the heater turns on and off at each setting, and therefore know what setting I need to be at optimally (instead of just "turning it on until the lead melts").

-Outside temps and fans will modify the lead temp. Started at 102 deg F, and wound up annealing at 84 (cloud came over, cool wid) - this jacked with the temp severely, so if you are trying to hit a certain temp this may need to be watched. The other thing with this - it seems that lead is ALWAYS looking for a reason to "congeal", and cools to that point FAST. It just doesnt seem to reatain a specific range of heat for annealing very well when evironmental factors change.

-I didn't use Mobil 1, I used Peak 10W-30. Worked much the same, but I got smoking at 4-5 seconds in the lead. IOW, after 7 seconds or so, I wonder if I would get some sticking of lead. Otherwise, they came out clean - what little lead was on there came off with a paper towel. Threw them in water immediately after the lead dip.

- I don't know how long to leave it in there, really. What I did was slowly lower the case in, leave it for 4 seconds, and puled it out. This left me with a case head that was easily handled. 5-6 seconds made the case head hot to the touch, but was still able to hold it. The bigger question I have is if the upper half of the case body is being annealed as well. Mike, any advice you have here will be greatly appreciated.

-I saw hardly any annealing signs at all.

I threw the cases into my ultrasonic cleaner and all of the crud came off. Then I threw them into a tumber just to get them dry and polished. Everything was good to go from there.

Mike, any additional comments/ help you have would be greatly appreciated.
 
Sounds to me like your all over it tlk.
I think you could go in/out even slower and be plenty safe. The case heads would be beyond the point of peeling your skin before there is any stress relieving that far up(450deg). I use a leather glove and take my sweet time.
You also need to make sure your lead is not overcooling as the brass accepts some of the lead's energy. With my pot, the lead will drop ~50deg with each dip. But I use a little more lead than you.

There will not be alot of discoloration that you may be used to comparing new brass(like Lapua). You are NOT annealing, because you aren't forming a shoulder and neck from a straight columb like Lapua is. Unless you're forming a completely new wildcat from brass, there is never ever a need or desire to anneal as a factory has initially done. This would just be a setback.
You only want to relieve stress in the worked area of cases.
With this, you should see a moderate tanning(5-O-Clock shadow) of the area heated when you pull the cases from your water. If you're not measuring your lead temp, tweak it & your timing to get a light tanning.

Anyway, once you got it, you got it. Easy & quick from then on.
And I think you're pretty much there.
 
I gave this a small test not to long ago when there was some casting going on and it really seemed like a good way to get better results with WSM brass, I have not had the consistency with the torch and spin method that I get with thinner brass. I'm going to make a small grate with holes that I can pop 20 rounds in at a time to dip.

Another write up would be appreciated, Mikecr!
 
I have been putting my .204 on .556 stripper clips and dipping them 5 at a time.

I'm using a full Lee 20 lb pot and haven't noticed a temperature drop.

Mike thanks for the instructions.

Okey
 
I was always under the impression that you need to anneal as to relieve work
hardened brass to get the same neck tension with each case. Mikecr are you saying that this is not true? I am pretty sure most on the BPCR and Shiloh Sharps sites would disagree with that one. I have shot with and visited with quite a few national champion BPCR Sillohette shooters and concensis is pretty much the same. Anneal after three firings so you get equal neck tension. Most seem to use the torch method as i do, and do so to a dull red so to soften the case mouths.

I don't understand why you say the method you use is any more accurate then the torch method, in both methods the timing is controlled by counting in your head and can vary. In the torch method I use a deep socket that fits the caseing and stuff a piece of paper towel in the bottom of it so the case stick out slightly longer then the length i want annealed, I then hold the case at the tip of the blue flame as I spin it in a cordless drill and count to six with my thinner walled straight cases and seven for my bottle necks. They have just a slight dull red color. Because of the protection of the socket, the bottom of the casing does not get too hot to affect the intgrity of the brass.
I am not trying to pick a fight and apoligize if thats the way this is comming off as. I guess I just don't see any difference as to the metod of one being better (more accurate) then the other. Jeff
 
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