Annealing Brass

[Partagas Black]

What do you guys think when annealing brass with the Bench Source or the Giraurd about dropping the hot brass in to cold water or let it cool dry and slow? Just curious if anyone has seen a difference in brass life or the way it shoots between the 2 methods?
Thank you in advance,

 

[Dosh]

PB, I drop mine in hot water, but some use cold and some let them air cool. Different individuals use different methods and as this thread progresses I am sure you will be made aware the reason for each. Good luck

 

[Canadian Bushman]

If the annealing is done properly it makes no difference.

Dropping cases into water is s safe guard against annealing to far down the case.

If your annealing a very short case or annealing too hot, dropping the case into water could potentially keep the heat from reaching the head of the case.

I drop them into water to slow the fall, sort annealed cases from the un-annealed, and keep me from accidentally grabbing a hot case.

 

[Partagas Black]

Thank you,
I've always dropped them in water like you say to help the fall and not grab a hot case. I also set up my test cases with Templaq before I start to anneal all my good cases just so I don't get one to hot.

I just had a discussion with a guy and he was trying to tell me I was reversing the annealing process by dropping them in cold water. I tried to explain that the case has already been heated up and it did not matter either way you choose the case is still annealed if you do it properly and not over heat the neck and shoulder.

Thank you for the quick response,

 

[Partagas Black]

Thank you Dosh,

I'm sure we will get some good discussion out of this thread.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Thank you,
I've always dropped them in water like you say to help the fall and not grab a hot case. I also set up my test cases with Templaq before I start to anneal all my good cases just so I don't get one to hot.

I just had a discussion with a guy and he was trying to tell me I was reversing the annealing process by dropping them in cold water. I tried to explain that the case has already been heated up and it did not matter either way you choose the case is still annealed if you do it properly and not over heat the neck and shoulder.

Thank you for the quick response,

Thats a common misconception because ferrous alloys are hardened by heating then quenching but the same does not hold true for brass and bronze. They will only gain significant hardness through working.

 

[rooster721]

I use a Bench Source.. but do not drop any cases into water, I let them fall off the turn-table (through the hole) into a tin baking pan actually and air-cool in there. As far as case life goes, I can definitely say I've doubled the life at this point*

...I bought mine to help with the Lazzeroni Firebird brass I had trouble with. I used to get 3-4 loads outta my brass but had accuracy suffer with each load after the first (due to neck hardening) Since using my annealer now, I'm currently at 7 loads and have as consistent neck tension as I ever have... they still shoot as accurate as ever and I am seeing no unusual pressure spikes like I did with "no" annealing. No surprises or frustration anymore. I can't say enough good about mine. At 7 now (however) I've got a few with looser primer pockets starting to show. Becoming obvious that I'm nearing the end of the brass' life. But going from 3 to 7 by annealing and still maintaining my accuracy (to me) is huge*

So yes, annealing increases case life without a doubt. And air vs water (with a Bench Source anyway) is irrelevant.. I see zero benefit to the water if a guy sets up properly with an aid like Tempilaq, then duplicating your set-up for each use. They work excellent as they were designed. May-be the best $$$ I've slent on my bench "yet"

 

[Reloader222]

I drop my hot annealed cases in water for the reason that it acts as a cushion for the hot case to land. Thereafter I wash my cases, dry them and then start sizing them.

 

[Barrelnut]

I drop my hot annealed cases in water for the reason that it acts as a cushion for the hot case to land. Thereafter I wash my cases, dry them and then start sizing them.

Same here.

 

[Trickymissfit]

unless you want to anneal the case body as well as the neck and shoulder, you must shock the brass to stop the heat transfer from the neck area. Shocking the brass is nothing but a rapid quench process. The quicker you quench, the quicker the heat transfer stops. But even quenching in ice water will not stop the transfer 100% contrary to popular belief. The warmer the quench medium, the more heat is transferred. So speed is the priority here.

I'd recommend a trip to the public library for a quick read on the subject of annealing brass. You'll soon find that most folks over heat the brass right from the start. Four hundred to five hundred fifty degrees is about the perfect window. I like the 430 degree area best, and by the time I quench the brass will be about 470 degrees. I use welder's temp sticks to be certain

Too soft of a case head can be dangerous, and really all you worry about is the neck and shoulder.
gary

 

[rooster740]

As mentioned above cool the brass before the heat moves to the case head! Or you will find you get every other piece of brass separating at the case head!

 

[Azprc]

Here is a note that has stuck with me. "Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state." It was stolen from this article, The Art and Science of Annealing

It will be hard to disprove anything in this article, quenching is unnecessary and air cooled is sufficient. Be cautious with over annealed brass, it is extremely dangerous. Wiping the water off is silly when you can take brass right from the annealer (allowing a couple minutes to cool) and load it. I can load 10 minutes after annealing while the annealing goes on in the next room. I don't have time to dry them before loading. Also, alot of guys don't allow the entire case to be preheated to around 200 degrees.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Here is a note that has stuck with me. "Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state." It was stolen from this article, The Art and Science of Annealing

It will be hard to disprove anything in this article, quenching is unnecessary and air cooled is sufficient. Be cautious with over annealed brass, it is extremely dangerous. Wiping the water off is silly when you can take brass right from the annealer (allowing a couple minutes to cool) and load it. I can load 10 minutes after annealing while the annealing goes on in the next room. I don't have time to dry them before loading. Also, alot of guys don't allow the entire case to be preheated to around 200 degrees.

Flip will probably chime in here as he's even more up to date than this old man.

Steel is a generic name that covers anything from hot rolled plate to 19 series stainless steel and high speed steel. To harden that piece of steel, you need two things first. Heat and carbon. Be looking for something like 1460 degrees with a complete soak of heat. Some steels use water for the quench, and some need oil. Yet some others want to be air cooled. Yet not every piece of steel will harden, no matter how hot you get it. High speed steel and air hardening steels want more heat than say a piece of O-1. Some steels will flame harden, but these are usually just hardened in a small area. Some steels harden like glass, and will actually shatter if dropped. To fix this problem we often draw them back in hardness (similar to annealing, but much more precise). Every alloy number draws back differently, and this can also change from brand name to brand name to a certain extent. Now I left one form of steel out of this, and the is the 5**** series steels. Most are specialty grades used in ball bearing manufacture plus a couple other uses that I'm not allowed to broadcast. These are usually hardened via magnetic inductance, and are never drawn back (I've never seen it done anyway). There are processes to add carbon to an existing piece of steel. With something like 8620, this is a must if you want it hardened (even then it's only a case). Without the carburizing process, that piece of steel will never harden. I will not go into quenching processes, as these often are very secretive.

Now brass is a different animal from steels and irons. It's heat properties are similar to aluminum and copper. They retain heat very well! You must get rid of all the heat asap, or it will continue to soften the metal. A test to confirm this can be done with a welder's temp stick. Draw two lines lengthways on a brass case. One line being 450 degrees, and the other being 200 degrees. Anneal the case without quenching it. You say 200 degrees don't mean anything? The brass starts to anneal close to 200 degrees! Although not very much. The heat in brass and aluminum travels very fast, and actually still moves during the quench. The warmer the quench, the easier for the heat to travel. Warm water will not shock the brass to stop the heat transfer. Although it certainly slows it down greatly. Yet if your one of the guys heating brass to about 700 to 800 degrees, your in trouble with warm water. 430 degrees is about perfect for annealing brass.
gary

 

[Partagas Black]

Thank you guys for all the useful info, I've been annealing cases for about 2yrs now 6.5x47 , 6.5 creedmoor and 338 Edge and I'm glad to see I've been doing it correctly.
I started to see signs of case head separation on the Hornady creedmoor brass around 12-13 fireings which I thought was good for that brass. I shoot 500-600 rnds a month between competing in the PRS and local matches along with some practice in there so it seems like I'm always reloading and find it interesting on how well the annealing process works on brass life and consistent accuracy. I use both the Giraurd and the Bench Source and they both perform excellent when set up properly.
Thank you,