annealing brass

[Engineering101]

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[Pdvdh]

Thanks Mike. I split out a few RWS .404 Jeffery case shoulders while fireforming to a wildcat cartridge 20 years ago. I was turning them into .338 Imperial/.338 Edge cases. But that involved several stepping/necking down processes and then lastly fireforming to expand the shoulder out to fit the chamber. Either that RWS .404 Jeffery brass wasn't annealed very thoroughly at the factory, or I'd worked it too much prior to fireforming.

My current project is less complicated. A direct fireforming of the 338 Lapua brass to 338 Lapua Improved. No working of the case necks at all. Simply blowing out the shoulder/body. I may anneal the shoulder area after fireforming, although I'm not certain of the value, since the shoulder area will never be worked much again after fireforming.

 

[back40sniper]

thanks for info, am looking forward to trying this.

 

[maninthemaze]

Timber338, does your annealing machine look like this one? Is so, are you pleased with how well it anneal the brass? I've built a similar one but am waiting on the templaq to arrive before I start.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0-C-i0Kr2jU

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

Timber338, does your annealing machine look like this one? Is so, are you pleased with how well it anneal the brass? I've built a similar one but am waiting on the templaq to arrive before I start.

You're going to find Templaq a PITA to use with a flame. The Girauld annealer is very similar with a single torch and I have been very happy with it. I also have another dual torch machine I made that does not rotate the brass and it also works well. I made it to work on rimmed cases.

 

[Pdvdh]

I gave up trying to use the tempil paint and rely on a dull red color with the lights out.

I purchased some Tempil paint years ago. Also stopped using it years ago. It never impressed me. Found it tedious and difficult to "read". Although it did, at a minimum, help confirm the duration of exposure in the propane flame necessary to reach annealing temperature. I now rely on the duration of time in the propane flame and visual confirmation of annealing.

I just finished annealing 3,500 .223 cases. I use a single propane torch and spin the cases by their case heads fastened into a Lee case head holding tool mounted in a battery operated drill. I place a battery operated clock on the table close enough that I can hear the seconds tick, as well as observe the second hand. 5 1/2 seconds of time is the norm for .223 case neck/shoulders based on my torch flame and length of flame. Some brands of brass are a little different than others, as some show the annealing discoloration a little sooner than others. And some (the minority - very few) hardly indicate annealing at all. On those I predominantly rely on time in the flame much more than annealing discoloration.

It requires a little longer to anneal 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag case necks/shoulders, compared to the .223s.

Here's a tip to beginners. Let the propane flame impinge on the case shoulder rather than the case neck, and let the heat from the shoulder conduct/transfer to the case necks to anneal the case neck. The case necks themselves heat much more rapidly in my experience. There's more forgiveness by focusing the intense flame on the shoulder area (more mass in shoulder than the necks) and allowing the heat to conduct across the case neck.

The case neck is the area we'd like to anneal most consistently, because it affects neck tension. If I overheat the shoulder slightly, no harm in that respect. In my studies and experience, there is some latitude built into the annealing time-temperature process which still produces an acceptable result. I just recently read an article that shows the temperature versus time duration to achieve case annealing. It's fortunate that this curve flattens across "time" within the range of effective annealing temperatures. Otherwise it would be like trying to anneal a case neck made out of candle wax. One instant no melt (no annealing) and the next instant, poof, no case neck (over annealed).

Practice on some "junk" cases. There is a little bit of art involved in the visual recognition of annealing case necks the way I anneal case necks. I primarily rely on the propane flame length, and duration of time in the flame. After I remove the case necks from the flame, I continue to spin the case shoulder on a wet sponge in order to bring the temperature down for safe handling rather quickly. The rate of cooling makes no difference/no affect on the annealing process. I cool them down on a water soaked sponge so I can handle the cases without burning my fingers much more quickly. And this method doesn't soak the interior of the cases in water. Water never enters the casings. Practice does improve skill level. I've been annealing for 10 years now. Having just annealed 3,500 cases over the past couple of months, I'm much better at it now than I've ever been in the prior 9 years.

Mikecr's method is an ideally controlled method of annealing, which should produce the utmost consistency. If the lead is molten, you know the temperature of the annealing bath is very tightly controlled, thus the temperature of the case necks also exceptionally uniform. Hats off to Mike. I've simply never had the gumption to attempt that method. I hate the idea of a molten lead burn/splatter.

Would be both interesting and educational to observe Mike's method in practice.

 

[Timber338]

Timber338, does your annealing machine look like this one? Is so, are you pleased with how well it anneal the brass? I've built a similar one but am waiting on the templaq to arrive before I start.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0-C-i0Kr2jU

It is slightly different... rather than a large drum to spin the case I use a small shaft with two silicone o-rings to spin the case. I will upload a video tonight after I get home from work.

And Tempilaq works quite well in my opinion. It's all about incorporating some type of process control. I only use Tempilaq on my test cases (old shot-out brass) to set my timing interval. I think it's an excellent way to incorporate process control considering the cost and ease of use. Even if it's not as accurate as a higher cost alternative method to determine various temperatures around the brass case, the #1 goal is consistency, which is what drove me to building my own annealing machine.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have yet to find any compelling research (such as temperature vs time graphs for annealing cartridge brass) that supports the need to use any type of super accurate temperature measurement system.

The most compelling evidence I have to date is empirical. My loads are now shooting with ES in single digits when I anneal and incorporate a few other methods to my reloading process, compared to ES up in the 50's or higher before I started chasing low ES muzzle velocities.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Information - annealing brass

Some technical information - annealing:

The Science Behind Annealing Brass Cases

 

[Timber338]

Here's a quick video from the prototype of my annealing machine. I'm in the process of putting together a final product, but this gets the general point across.

This brass was in the flame for about 5.5 seconds. You can see the 750 Tempilaq inside the neck fully melt just as the brass leaves the flame.


[ame="https://youtu.be/finr9W5jxzc"]https://youtu.be/finr9W5jxzc[/ame]

 

[maninthemaze]

Very cool idea!!!! I had to copy my design from AussieSkip on YouTube and AR15.com. Your looks very unique and looks like it works really well. I have some junk Federal 7wsm brass just waiting to be annealed. My templaq will be here this weekend. I can't wait to get my reloading up and going again with some new extra steps. Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[bkondeff]

I'm not a pro like many on here. I have loaded for ~10 years and learned a lot about what I've done wrong and some about what works. I do most of my reloading strictly for hunting rifles an the past 4 years almost strictly 7mm in 3 diffeent rifles. I have found that between 2-3 firings, I can get dramatic differences, and I relate it all to the necks. They simply don't resize the same, and you can tell the neck tension is affected. I know the answer is Annealing, but like many topics in reloading, there are 3 answers to every question.

That said, I'll ask, what is the best and most reliable way to properly anneal about 200-300 cases of rifle cases a year, say 25-06 up to 300WM PROPERLY, so I can maintain first firing accuracy out of my brass? I'm okay spending a few hundred on a machine, as at up to $80/100 for brass it will pay for itself, and a 200" Mule Deer is well worth it if the right situation show's up.

 

[Mikecr]

Annealing(like any single action) isn't right until the barrel/load/results tell you so. The barrel likes a load, the load likes a given tension.
If your plan is to maintain low neck tension, then it's prudent to anneal as you will continually, including through load development. There needs to be reasons with this plan.
If shooting a 30-06 with typical sloppy chamber then you know annealing will be needed, might as well begin with it, and find a best load with this.
If shooting an underbore 6.5x47L, which will like a pressure node, but testing shows best seating off the lands(OTL), then you'll likely need faster powder or neck tension-lots of it, to hit that magic node. In this case I would manage consistent tension, without losing it to annealing. Better chamber and sizing die fitting, to turned necks.

 

[Pdvdh]

That said, I'll ask, what is the best and most reliable way to properly anneal about 200-300 cases of rifle cases a year, say 25-06 up to 300WM PROPERLY, so I can maintain first firing accuracy out of my brass?

The "best and most reliable way", without regard to cost, is to buy one of the most expensive units manufactured and sold for this purpose. Like Lapua, or Precision Cartridge, use at their manufacturing factory.

I annealed my very first cartridge case maybe 20 years ago, with whatever equipment I could muster up from my garage. 20-years later, within the past 2-3 months I annealed more than 3,000 cases with equipment that costs less than $30, since I already owned several propane torch kits. Part of that equipment consists of the consumable Coleman propane canisters. I consider myself a much more accomplished case neck/shoulder annealer now, producing more consistently annealed cases, than the first 200 cases I annealed with $30 worth of equipment. But I would never contend that my methods are the "best and most reliable" way.

Hate to be the downer, but you will not uncover the answer to your question on this forum or any other forum, within a 3-sentence response. And no one else will be able to answer this question for you, unless you completely disregard the costs of the annealing equipment.

If you're serious about annealing, you'll Google search the topic and read entire articles which have been written on the subject. Even then there aren't a lot of good articles. You'll find contradicting information from article to article. Obviously some authors know, and some don't understand, the science of annealing cartridge case necks/shoulders. After you better understand the theory, you'll have the basic understanding, and you'll be positioned to determine which is the best and most reliable way for you to anneal your own case necks.

 

[maninthemaze]

I copied my design mostly from the website listed below. If you look thru all the pages you'll find that some people made there where the feed roll has two slots in it for different size cartriges. They simply block off the slots they're not using. If the cartridge is really long they swap out the drum for a deeper one, because this drum kinda blocks the heat from reaching below the shoulder of the brass. Either way, with a little skill and some ingenuity, these machines are relatively easy and cheap to make.

Or you could just buy an Annealeez, Giraud or Bench Source.


Here's the link to the homebuilt ones.
DIY Annealing Machine - AR15.COM