Accuracy warranty?

[Hired Gun]

Of gunsmiths offering written or verbal accuracy warranties what if any are the stipulations?

Is there a limit for how long in time or number of shots? Is it just in the shop before it ships or anytime anywhere?

If you don't spell it out what would you do with a rifle that met the goal when shipped but years later is returned for accuracy issues?

Any thoughts on this topic?

 

[J E Custom]

Of gunsmiths offering written or verbal accuracy warranties what if any are the stipulations?

Is there a limit for how long in time or number of shots? Is it just in the shop before it ships or anytime anywhere?

If you don't spell it out what would you do with a rifle that met the goal when shipped but years later is returned for accuracy issues?

Any thoughts on this topic?

I would think that proving to the owner that the rifle will/would shoot below the accuracy guarantee
at the time of acceptance would be the most a smith could guarantee because of the owners care of the rifle and there ability to shoot better than the guarantee.

There are people that just cant shoot 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA all the time and also don't maintain the condition of the weapon for it's best performance.

I have seen rifles that have never been cleaned and the owner wondered why it would not "shoot
like it use to".

I have also seen rifles with decades of use and thousands of rounds that still maintained it's original
accuracy.

If the smith guaranties an accuracy level , he must prove the firearm will do that or better.
The proof that the accuracy is there meets his obligation. it is up to the owner to maintain that
level through maintenance and practice. Most owners will shoot better if they know what the rifle is capable of and know they can't blame the rifle for there poor shooting.

Just a question? what do you think would be reasonable time to expect a gunsmith to warranty
an accuracy level, considering all of the variables that can effect accuracy ?

Just my thoughts and some comments on a good question.

J E CUSTOM

 

[royinidaho]

What J E said!!!

 

[Hired Gun]

That's why I'm asking? I have seen warranties from the factory that are honored for life to as short as, "it did it before it left." I did see some wording from Clay Spencer on 6mm BR forum that stated his warranty was only for 250 shots on certain small calibers with his ammo only. Most others are pretty broad.

The variables that can occur to a rifle after it's built that will affect accuracy is astounding. Bore coatings, treatments, fire lapping, bore paste, nitrating, whacking their cleaning rods with their palm on tight fitting patches, soaking in harsh chemicals, muzzle on the gravel filled pickup floor and the list just goes on and on.

 

[J E Custom]

The variables that can occur to a rifle after it's built that will affect accuracy is astounding. Bore coatings, treatments, fire lapping, bore paste, nitrating, whacking their cleaning rods with their palm on tight fitting patches, soaking in harsh chemicals, muzzle on the gravel filled pickup floor and the list just goes on and on.[/QUOTE]


And what you have listed is just a small number of things that people can do to a firearm.

I have only had one rifle comeback, the owner said it would not shoot very well, so he and I went to the range so I could try to figure out what was wrong. After checking everything out for safety. I took the factory ammo that I had recommended and shot a sub 1/4 MOA group just over .200(Hello)?

I then ask him to fire the rifle and after 3 shots he was about 2" inches so I loaded the rifle with two more rounds(I neglected to tell him they were fired cases) and when he pulled the trigger the barrel jerked badly and the cat was out of the bag. you can't warranty that. He was actually a little ****ed
at me for showing him what the problem was, but I just told him to work on it with a 22 if he had one.

So I would recommend that anyone having a rifle built that wants a accuracy guarantee witness the smith test firing it if possible so they know it WILL shoot to there requirements and except that.

Just My opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[kc0pph]

Here is a question for you personally JE since if I get my way you will be building my rifle when all of the parts come in (stock is 6 months out still). I'm a little too far away to go to the range with you, do you provide a target? I am asking not because I don't trust you as 100% of the people here will vouch for you and your rifles, but rather I am in that group that can shoot 3/4 moa on a good day and would like to know what the rifle was capable of in the hands of someone who is a good shot.

As for the op it would be impossible for a smith to warranty a rifle (esp a magnum) for any time after the rifle left his shop. Imagine someone going out and shooting 30-50 rounds in a short period of time and roasting the bore.

 

[Edd]

I think if I buy a custom rifle with an accuracy warranty, take it hunting and miss my Elk, the gunsmith should reimburse me for all of my hunting trip expenses.

 

[J E Custom]

Here is a question for you personally JE since if I get my way you will be building my rifle when all of the parts come in (stock is 6 months out still). I'm a little too far away to go to the range with you, do you provide a target? I am asking not because I don't trust you as 100% of the people here will vouch for you and your rifles, but rather I am in that group that can shoot 3/4 moa on a good day and would like to know what the rifle was capable of in the hands of someone who is a good shot.

As for the op it would be impossible for a smith to warranty a rifle (esp a magnum) for any time after the rifle left his shop. Imagine someone going out and shooting 30-50 rounds in a short period of time and roasting the bore.

I always test the rifle and until I am satisfied it doesn't leave my control. I can and do always furnish a target with proof that it was fired with the rifle and the conditions.

A custom rifle should out shoot most shooters (Including me) and if everything is done correctly
they will shoot well under 1/2 MOA (Most of the time they will shoot around 1/4 moa with some getting down below 1/10th MOA) with proper loading, but not always.

I realize that I cannot always take the owner to the range (My preferred method of turning the rifle over because I can also show him proper care and maintenance also) so I Have to prove to my self that the rifle will do what the owner wanted.

A really fine rifle will normally improve the owners accuracy because of the confidence it instills so
he must be convinced that it will be very accurate (The main reason for building a Custom Rifle).

It doesn't matter who/what smith builds the rifle you must have confidence in his ability and he has
to want to please you.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Pdvdh]

I have only had one rifle comeback, the owner said it would not shoot very well, so he and I went to the range so I could try to figure out what was wrong. After checking everything out for safety. I took the factory ammo that I had recommended and shot a sub 1/4 MOA group just over .200(Hello)?

I then ask him to fire the rifle and after 3 shots he was about 2" inches so I loaded the rifle with two more rounds(I neglected to tell him they were fired cases) and when he pulled the trigger the barrel jerked badly and the cat was out of the bag. You can't warranty that. He was actually a little ****ed
at me for showing him what the problem was, but I just told him to work on it with a 22 if he had one.

J E CUSTOM

He was probably ****ed because you were giggling...

 

[Slaysesh]

I look for accuracy warranty a major deal breaker. a lot of money to throw down on something that could be just as good as something i can pick up at walmart. Look at Kirby allens warranty he gives you a good load 1/2 moa or better and proves it. If i remember correctly Rbros does something like this also. Not to the ranges kirby pushes them too though. but still a piece of mind the rifle has the potential.
You are a good smith hiredgun i don't think that you will have a problem reaching the goal of an accuracy guarantee.

 

[snowpro440]

Well pending on who your smith is and if he is willing to take the time to show you and give you the right information on loading your own ammo and shooting techniques to go with your new custom built rifle is a plus . This saves you lots of time and money if your on the right track as a newbie. As far as a warranty , usually the shooter or ammo is defective as your ammo might not shoot as well in my gun.

 

[J E Custom]

I look for accuracy warranty a major deal breaker. a lot of money to throw down on something that could be just as good as something i can pick up at walmart. Look at Kirby allens warranty he gives you a good load 1/2 moa or better and proves it. If i remember correctly Rbros does something like this also. Not to the ranges kirby pushes them too though. but still a piece of mind the rifle has the potential.
You are a good smith hiredgun i don't think that you will have a problem reaching the goal of an accuracy guarantee.

Furnishing a/the load is a good thing. it also brings the price of the build up because it takes time and many trips to the range.

The difference in price can be substantial and mean the difference in building a custom rifle or not
to many people.

Kleinguenther has done this for many years and may still be doing it, but it cost quite a bit more to get one of there rifles with loaded ammo. they are very good rifles and worth the money if you can afford one.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Hired Gun]

I'm doing some work for a guy who had a well known smith and LRH forum supporter work up a load for his 308. When he went to pick it up the bill for the load development and 20 rounds of finished ammo was $800.

I've only been asked once for ammo. I did 100 rounds of 338 Lapua that shot 1/4 MOA in the rifles I built him and it didn't cost that much.

 

[shortgrass]

4:40PM, think I'll quit early today! Ahhhh! The accuracy guarantee. I checked around to see what others were doing and choose those that I felt were relevant. I guarantee 1/2" with proper handloads, 3/4" with factory, if I supply the barrel and do the stock work/bedding, too. If the customer hands me or ships me the barrel, no guarantee. I don't know how it's been handled or whether it's been used as a lever. If my customer has the barrel shipped to me by the maker, I'll honor the guarantee. Some brands of barrels I just won't use, regardless. If the customer wants to do his own stock work/ bedding, no guarantee. A rifle is a "system", not just parts that have been assembled. Take the finest machine work and "stuff/cram" it into a stock and you may not get the results you desire. I don't care how many rifles you say you have bedded. I keep a lot of factory ammo in the shop. Some will ask the price. The ammo isn't for sale, it's there for test firing, for chamber and accuracy of factory ammo. I handload 'batches' at a time and use a known load straight from a loading manual. It'll tell me what I need to know, within a few rounds. With todays barrels and methods it's not hard to meet the guarantee. I don't load ammo for anyone except myself. I operate under a 01 Dealers License. I will forward loading data if it is requested as it is all 'published' data from a loading manual. The customer needs to do any of the 'fine tuning' a handload may require. If he wants me to do that, it's at my hourly rate,,,,, time + materials. I find most accuracy problems are shooter related. Poor reloading practice, improper or lack of cleaning, expecting all factory ammo to shoot the same, or, I'm sorry to say, just don't know how to shoot. I've met those who think the rifle does it all. No rifle will stop a flinch. No rifle preforms well when its trigger is jerked instead of squeezed. A 10 1/2lb. .300 Ultra Mag requires different handling from a bench rest than a 17lb. .22PPC. There is such a thing a 'muzzle flip' and the bullet won't land where you were last looking. I use what I call "shop glass" for the scope when test firing if the customer doesn't supply a scope. My "shop glass" is a 12 x 40 Leupold with fine crosshairs. Why anyone would mount a 'cheap' glass on a custom is beyond me, but I have, and more than just a couple of times. Any "guarantee" has to work both ways. Too harsh? I've got work backed-up buy 1-3 months (at times, longer), depending on the time of the year, and that condition has existed for the past 15+ years. If we can't agree, well........... I now provide the test target as my 'proof'. After a rifle leaves me, I no longer have control of the ammo it's fed or the care it is given. If the customer complains right away of accuracy 'issues', I'll gladly look it over and test fire it again. If he decides a few hundred rounds or a month later it doesn't shoot like it did when it was new, well.... If it's something I've done or could have/should have done better, no charge. If it's a problem of the customers' own making, time + materials. I usually pass along a lot of info to my customer. If he decides to ignore that info, there's really not much I can do about it. In the past, I've "given away" countless hours of my time to those who just "don't know". (that Hawkeye Bore scope is a heck of a tattle-tale)