elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Thats what Ive seen too and why people get different results! Thats why I open all of them the same with the .040" bit
7mm Berger 180 Hybrids
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Nwlongrange90
Member
Elk are just tough in general. I watch a bull swallow 3 rounds from a 30 Nosler with 215's he was dead on his feet after the first shot they are just tough.
Left Hand Dave
Well-Known Member
Have you checked bullet weight between the ones with open tips and the ones with clogged tips? It would be interesting to see how much difference there is or if the weight difference still falls within the range of the open tips.
My guess is if you contact Berger they may address the issue from an accuracy/consistency point but will tell you they are a target bullet not hunting bullet from a terminal performance point of view. Doesn't matter if they work well for hunting most of the time, it is an out. Also seems like target bullets should be more consistent.
My guess is if you contact Berger they may address the issue from an accuracy/consistency point but will tell you they are a target bullet not hunting bullet from a terminal performance point of view. Doesn't matter if they work well for hunting most of the time, it is an out. Also seems like target bullets should be more consistent.
Bang4theBuck
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to express appreciation to the OP for taking the approach that he did with this post. Berger is a well-proven product in all disciplines. That said, anyone who is manufacturing anything is occasionally going to have issues in their process.
It doesn't make them a bad company, or these bullets a bad product....you might just have to pay a little extra attention. Berger might have to do that too!
One question I had was these being 180 grain Hybrids are they actually hunting bullets? Just because we as a hobby group have found them work well (most of the time) on animals, is there a process that Berger skips based on it not being a hunting bullet?
In these scenarios, I ask myself, what is the old tried and true bullet that doesn't have any of these kind of issues. A nosler partition or sierra game king come to mind. What you see is what you get. No hidden cavity. I also don't hear too many people sending them 600-1000 yds at animals as regularly as Berger and similar type bullets.
All in all...good discussion point and approach by the OP. Thanks.
It doesn't make them a bad company, or these bullets a bad product....you might just have to pay a little extra attention. Berger might have to do that too!
One question I had was these being 180 grain Hybrids are they actually hunting bullets? Just because we as a hobby group have found them work well (most of the time) on animals, is there a process that Berger skips based on it not being a hunting bullet?
In these scenarios, I ask myself, what is the old tried and true bullet that doesn't have any of these kind of issues. A nosler partition or sierra game king come to mind. What you see is what you get. No hidden cavity. I also don't hear too many people sending them 600-1000 yds at animals as regularly as Berger and similar type bullets.
All in all...good discussion point and approach by the OP. Thanks.
ENGUNEER
Well-Known Member
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Animals can take a lot of lead sometimes. I once shot a Coues buck at around 300 yards with a "hot" 6.5mm 125 partition (approx 3200 fps muzzle). It took 2 shots in the chest, kicking up dust on the far side, without any real reaction. I was sighting for a 3rd shot when it ran off and died out of sight in the brush. Both hits were broadside lung shots and only 2" apart.
41magnut
Well-Known Member
You are using the 7MM 180 Grain Hybrid Target bullet as best I can determine.
I looked on the Berger website and found no Hybrid hunting bullet, a VLD hunting bullet but no Hybrid. If you have a Berger Hybrid Hunting bullet when did you buy them, and have they been discontinued?
Target bullets are not designed to expand, penetrate and so on as a hunting bullet. They are designed for accuracy. They work very well in that regard, and many people use them for hunting because of the accuracy but not the best tool for the intended job.
Dangerous game bullets are solids, designed for a specific purpose and they work for that intended purpose? They are designed to penetrate tough hides, dense bone, used in larger caliber rifles (.375+), heavier bullets, at fairly close distances.
Is there any bullet manufacturer that recommends their target bullet for hunting, and perhaps make statement advising against such use?
Within this thread there two examples, one with pictures, of when targets bullets fail as hunting bullets.
Yes, all bullets no matter what the designed intended use can and do fail to perform.
Target bullets will work for hunting .....until...... they don't.
Thankfully both of the examples that I read of on this thread recovered the animals. How many were not recovered, and not talked about?
Perhaps you would be better served to develop a load with the Berger VLD Hunting bullet.
I looked on the Berger website and found no Hybrid hunting bullet, a VLD hunting bullet but no Hybrid. If you have a Berger Hybrid Hunting bullet when did you buy them, and have they been discontinued?
Target bullets are not designed to expand, penetrate and so on as a hunting bullet. They are designed for accuracy. They work very well in that regard, and many people use them for hunting because of the accuracy but not the best tool for the intended job.
Dangerous game bullets are solids, designed for a specific purpose and they work for that intended purpose? They are designed to penetrate tough hides, dense bone, used in larger caliber rifles (.375+), heavier bullets, at fairly close distances.
Is there any bullet manufacturer that recommends their target bullet for hunting, and perhaps make statement advising against such use?
Within this thread there two examples, one with pictures, of when targets bullets fail as hunting bullets.
Yes, all bullets no matter what the designed intended use can and do fail to perform.
Target bullets will work for hunting .....until...... they don't.
Thankfully both of the examples that I read of on this thread recovered the animals. How many were not recovered, and not talked about?
Perhaps you would be better served to develop a load with the Berger VLD Hunting bullet.
You can really see it in this photo, looks like the brass dribbled into the opening
RockyMtnUT
Well-Known Member
Please don't take this wrong. Many of your questions have been answered years ago and almost bi- monthly. This topic of target vs vld has been beat like a red headed step child. But still remains a question which is fine.
Yes, hybrids are still made. @Petey308 has compiled answers to most questions above and might be a good source for you to investigate. He has done some dissecting of many bullets out there and is LRH leading expert in this area.
Maybe he will chime in when he wakes up?
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Actually, Berger does make hybrid hunting bullets. Their Elite series are a hybrid design. For example the 140 Elite Hunter is nearly identical to the 140 Hybrid Target except that it supposedly has a slightly thinner jacket to allow for better expansion in hunting scenarios.......
RH300UM
Well-Known Member
To be clear I was and still are using the 180 hybrid target bullets. Also I once again want to state that I am not bashing the company. I am simply showing what I found. That information can be used how each individual sees fit for them personally
bkshafer
Well-Known Member
Not true. They do have issues if the tips are clogged. I've shot Berger 180 VLD Hunting bullets for at least 15 years if not more out of several 7mm's in various cartridges over the years. I absolutely love the bullet and still shoot them religiously. But I personally had a terrible experience with a 5 point bull elk 12 years ago. I shot the bull with a 7mm STW and hit him directly behind the front shoulder in the vitals. It was about a 150 yard shot. Long story short the bull went a short distance and layed down. I had to shoot it 3 more times. 2 more behind the shoulder and finally 1 in the neck that put him down. The bullets performed like full metal jackets. Pencil size hole going in and a very small hole coming out. Very small wound channels not typical of Bergers. Everyone at the time told me I was full of crap and pretty much an idiot that didn't know what I was doing. They said it was impossible for those bullets to perform like that. I eventually contacted Berger to tell them of my experience and a factory representative told me at that time that they had an issue with that particular 180 grain bullet in certain lots having clogged tips. For the record he told me to get rid of them and sent me a new box to replace them. Off the record he told me to verify the tips were open so the performance was right and I would be fine . You probably shouldn't have to do that but they are awesome bullets and I love the way they shoot so I verify all mine now and have nothing but outstanding performance since. Again not bashing Berger at all. I pretty much exclusively shoot Bergers in all my rifles but that is an issue that needs to be watched. Especially with the 180's and larger bullets.
I just wish I could find some more!
