338-06 vs 8mm-06 vs 35 Wheelen vs 375 Wheelen vs 9.3x62 POWER!

[Wild Monkey]

Improved or not, strictly from a Hunting perspective. We know the .338-06 Improved is astounding, but which is the Absolute Best for drop & power. Stats & Specs only from experienced users. (Please no short neck improved cartridges, KISS)

 

[TRexF16]

That's a lot of "versus!"
Sorry, but the 338-06 AI is not astounding, at least, if it is being compared to the basic 338-06. In that cartridge case, as well as the 35 Whelen vs 35 WAI (which I own), the added velocity at the same pressures is about 1%. (case capacity goes up about 3-4%, the 4:1 rule tells us - as does testing - that equals about 1% more velocity).
I'm not sure what you mean by "drop and power", but I assume you mean the trajectory and KE. It's hard to say which is absolute best because sometimes drop and power are "crossing lines" on a graph, and one's purpose must be better defined.
I own one 35 Whelen AI, one 9.3x62, and two 338-06. "Strictly from a hunting perspective", up through elk, I don't think the critter is going to tell the difference. As critters get bigger, the bigger bullets are going to start having an advantage.
None of this may mean anything on a "Long Range Hunting" perspective, but none of these are really long range rounds.
I will say one thing in favor of the .35 Whelen. There are some new data published in the last few years with PP 2000-MR, and CFE-223, that are real game changers in the Whelen. The .338-06 and 9.3 do not have this benefit, though. A 35 Whelen with a 14 inch or less twist can really do some good work with heavier than 250 grain bullets and give the 9.3 a real challenge. Load the 9.3 to the same level though and use 286 grain, and higher weights, and you're in country that those other rounds can't touch.

So I didn't give you any "hard numbers" there. Here are some from my 23", 14" twist, 35 WAI. These are all tested in my rifle.

Cheers,
Rex

 

[TRexF16]

BTW, in the thread title, did you mean 8mm-08 or 8mm-06?

 

[sable tireur]

Here is an excellent article comparing the 9.3x62 vs the .35 Whelen:

https://www.bullet-behavior.com/9-3x62-or-35-whelen

.338-06:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.338-06+A-Square.html

8mm-06:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/8mm-06.html

I subscribe to this quote as far as comparisons are concerned:

"There isn't really a great deal to say about it. Everybody found it so generally satisfactory that there wasn't anything to start a discussion."

This is how John "Pondoro" Taylor sums up the 9.3x62 in his classic "African Rifles and Cartridges".

If you are stuck with standard long actions and the ubiquitous '06 bolt face (.473) then these are your cartridges. If you can function outside of this range of cartridges then you should consider:

9.3x64 Brenneke
8x68
375 Ruger
338 Blaser Mag
338 Edge

All of your cartridges will fulfill your need for a relatively accurate, middle range hunting cartridge. The ones I list will will handle slightly heavier bullets and slightly longer ranges.

 

[wilkup]

That's a lot of "versus!"
Sorry, but the 338-06 AI is not astounding, at least, if it is being compared to the basic 338-06. In that cartridge case, as well as the 35 Whelen vs 35 WAI (which I own), the added velocity at the same pressures is about 1%. (case capacity goes up about 3-4%, the 4:1 rule tells us - as does testing - that equals about 1% more velocity).
I'm not sure what you mean by "drop and power", but I assume you mean the trajectory and KE. It's hard to say which is absolute best because sometimes drop and power are "crossing lines" on a graph, and one's purpose must be better defined.
I own one 35 Whelen AI, one 9.3x62, and two 338-06. "Strictly from a hunting perspective", up through elk, I don't think the critter is going to tell the difference. As critters get bigger, the bigger bullets are going to start having an advantage.
None of this may mean anything on a "Long Range Hunting" perspective, but none of these are really long range rounds.
I will say one thing in favor of the .35 Whelen. There are some new data published in the last few years with PP 2000-MR, and CFE-223, that are real game changers in the Whelen. The .338-06 and 9.3 do not have this benefit, though. A 35 Whelen with a 14 inch or less twist can really do some good work with heavier than 250 grain bullets and give the 9.3 a real challenge. Load the 9.3 to the same level though and use 286 grain, and higher weights, and you're in country that those other rounds can't touch.

So I didn't give you any "hard numbers" there. Here are some from my 23", 14" twist, 35 WAI. These are all tested in my rifle.

Cheers,
Rex

Your links are dead.

 

[Wild Monkey]

Here is an excellent article comparing the 9.3x62 vs the .35 Whelen:

https://www.bullet-behavior.com/9-3x62-or-35-whelen



"There isn't really a great deal to say about it. Everybody found it so generally satisfactory that there wasn't anything to start a discussion."

This is how John "Pondoro" Taylor sums up the 9.3x62 in his classic "African Rifles and Cartridges".

Truly an outstanding comparison touting the usefulness of 9.3 on Dangerous Game. Wow factor right there. Being so narrowminded I only considered North American Game for this thread. You brought in an entirely new depth of understanding for the 9.3 Caliber. I had hoped the 338-06 would have a larger long range following considering the high bc bullets it's case capacity could launch. I must be thinking of the 338-300 Win Mag, which brings up the subject of another thread.

 

[sable tireur]

Your links are dead.

I thought so also but they are downloads which need a word processor program and saved to your documents file. If you're on a phone, who knows...

 

[sable tireur]

Here is an article written by a friend of mine about hunting in Africa with the .35 Whelen:

https://soulofacarp.com/africanhunter/firearms/35_whelen_zimbabwe_01.htm

Al passed away several year ago but his love of Africa was obvious.

Best.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Well, I do have a 35 whelen running 2700 fps with 220 speer pills pushed by rl15 and I have a standard 30-06 so I'll toss my hat in here. I've run up to 259gr mono pills in my 35 whelen and she's accurate. She doesn't like 200 gr. pills however, Could be the faster twist ruger used on the Hawkeye rifles.
Trexf16 is pretty much spot on with his assessment of the ai's. Little gain for the cost.
My 338 is a 338 win as it's faster than the '06 based 338's and doesn't require what the Lapua, etc. do (chassis platform and oversized action) for a rifle to do well. It doesn't hurt that I got a decent deal on the rifle. 2900 fps on a 225 is nearly 300 rum territory with a fatter slug (still decent bc) out of a 2 1/2" belted case.
A standard 30-06 will probably out-run the 8-06 with a decent 200 like the eld-x or a Berger. No reason to be hamstrung so much on bullet choice with 8mm for the few thou. frontal diameter increase and no weight increase.

 

[TRexF16]

Your links are dead.

They are not links, they are attached .pdf files. They open fine on my computer but then, the originals also reside on my computer so that might be a factor.
Has anyone been able to open those attached dope cards in my post above - just wondering what's wrong.
Thanks,
Rex

 

[sable tireur]

I have opened them just fine and even printed them out. They are now stored in my 'documents' file but I'm set up for actions such as this.

 

[TRexF16]

Well, I do have a 35 whelen running 2700 fps with 220 speer pills pushed by rl15 and I have a standard 30-06 so I'll toss my hat in here. I've run up to 259gr mono pills in my 35 whelen and she's accurate. She doesn't like 200 gr. pills however, Could be the faster twist ruger used on the Hawkeye rifles.
Trexf16 is pretty much spot on with his assessment of the ai's. Little gain for the cost.
My 338 is a 338 win as it's faster than the '06 based 338's and doesn't require what the Lapua, etc. do (chassis platform and oversized action) for a rifle to do well. It doesn't hurt that I got a decent deal on the rifle. 2900 fps on a 225 is nearly 300 rum territory with a fatter slug (still decent bc) out of a 2 1/2" belted case.
A standard 30-06 will probably out-run the 8-06 with a decent 200 like the eld-x or a Berger. No reason to be hamstrung so much on bullet choice with 8mm for the few thou. frontal diameter increase and no weight increase.

Lefty,
Interested in your assessment of the 30-06 outrunning the 8mm-06. If you mean just because there are high BC bullets for the 30 and not for the 8mm, I concur. Certainly if we shot 200 grain Partitions at the same pressure in both, since that is one bullet that is available in the same style and weight for both, the 8mm would produce more velocity and energy at the muzzle. Even then, the -06 might pass it somewhere downrange - that would be an interesting calculation.

It would be made even more interesting if you ran the numbers using Brian Litz's actual measured BC for the .308 200NPT, which is .501, vs Nosler's claimed .481 - one of the rare instances where Nosler understates the BC of their bullet. Mostly it's the other way around. Too bad we don't have a measurement for the 8mm 200NPT, just Nosler's listing of .426. Either way, It'd be interesting to see if the 30-06 catches up within hunting ranges appropriate to these rounds.

Regarding my comment on the AIs, I still favor them for brass life and "coolness", despite the minimal gains in velocity at the .338 and .358 calibers.

Cheers,
Rex

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Lefty,
Interested in your assessment of the 30-06 outrunning the 8mm-06. If you mean just because there are high BC bullets for the 30 and not for the 8mm, I concur. Certainly if we shot 200 grain Partitions at the same pressure in both, since that is one bullet that is available in the same style and weight for both, the 8mm would produce more velocity and energy at the muzzle. Even then, the -06 might pass it somewhere downrange - that would be an interesting calculation.

It would be made even more interesting if you ran the numbers using Brian Litz's actual measured BC for the .308 200NPT, which is .501, vs Nosler's claimed .481 - one of the rare instances where Nosler understates the BC of their bullet. Mostly it's the other way around. Too bad we don't have a measurement for the 8mm 200NPT, just Nosler's listing of .426. Either way, It'd be interesting to see if the 30-06 catches up within hunting ranges appropriate to these rounds.

Regarding my comment on the AIs, I still favor them for brass life and "coolness", despite the minimal gains in velocity at the .338 and .358 calibers.

Cheers,
Rex

I really have no issues with brass life in a 30-06. If you run your dies set to a couple thou. push back on your rifle's chamber it'll only grow 3 to 5 thou. per firing. I have north of 500 rounds of 30-06 brass and an equal amount of 270 brass so I'd shoot out the barrel before I ran out of brass. The whelen doesn't grow much either with the minimal shoulder that it has. The only a.i. I would even think about is the 400 whelen, and that is because it is rather much necessary to a.i. to have enough shoulder to properly headspace a 400..

Sierra shows both the 30-06 and 8mm-06 at 2700 fps with a 200 grain pill and I've been able to get 2600 fps out of a 30-06 without trying so they are essential equal velocity wise. The extra b.c of the 30 cal. pushes your energy up on the 30 comparatively pretty much as soon as you move downrange, so the bit of extra k.o. of the 8mm is rather much negated on any animal you would use either cartridge on.

Now if you step up to 338 or 35 the extra bullet weight available will walk the 30 in penetration, so they are in a different place. Truly a step up to toss a 250 + pill at 2400-2500 fps into something versus a 200grain pill. Add to that an expanded bullet in the the 3/4" range versus a .5 to .6" mushroom from a 30 and you have a larger wound that continues more deeply than the 30 will offer.

 

[Will Gray]

The 30-06 case is great and yields some fine hunting rounds: the 35 Whelen is a great one. If you are going big, move up the the 300 RUM case for the 338 EDGE or my favorite the 375 RUM. "go big or go home" I also made a 416/300 RUM but that was just for fun: it is an awesome cartridge.