Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by texas, Jul 3, 2002.

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  1. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Has anyone heard of or had any exprience with this round? 250gr at 3900fps from a 34" barrel using a 1 in 9 twist and up to 4000 fps with 110grs. Darryl how does that compare with your TOMAHAWK or anything else that you know of that can do double duty? Not counting the 408 since it can't be use in competition.
  2. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    May 7, 2001


    3900 FPS with a 250 gr 30 cal bullet???? A 20mm cannon neck down?

    110 grs of what? If it's powder you were talking about, that amount will not give the velocity you mentioned.

    Brand of 250 gr bullet? What BC? I would think it would be a 240 gr MK. unless it is a special custom bullet of Warrens. Then again 110 grs of powder will not give that velocity unless it's rocket fuel with boosters added.

    Case used to achieve that velocity? It would have to be in the 150 to 175 gr powder volume size, at least and probably MUCH more.

    Something like that would be a lot more overbore then the 30/378 is.

    More info needed on it like, who made the claim and who did the testing.

    The 408 is legal for competitions. Rules state that it must be no larger then a 40 cal. ---A .408 diameter IS a 40 cal. It ceases to be 40 cal when a bullet reaches 41 caliber or .410 diameter. Just like the 308 is a 30 caliber.

    I think at 3200 FPS with the Tomahawk and 240 gr bullets that's about right for the 30 Cal bore and factory mag actions. You could neck the 505 Gibbs case down to 30 cal and give more powder volume. I would rather neck that case down to 338 and shoot the 300 gr MK in it. Then again, you will need big custom actions to use it.

    For the regular hunter and shooter who wants a big 30 cal that will certainly do everything needed in a 30 cal. on a factory action, the Tomahawk fills that nitch.


    [ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
  3. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Sorry I left some info out: 250gr bullet loaded with 85.0grs H-4831 powder. The parent cartridge is a 416 rigby. If you have a book called "Cartridges of the world" its listed on page 182. I'm trying to contact the man who came up with this round to get more information.
  4. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    May 7, 2001

    The 416 Rigby Imp and the 378 Weatherby IMP have the SAME case capacity.

    I shoot 122.5 grs of WC872 in my 338/416 IMP and a 37" barrel and that gives me a top speed of 3310 FPS with a 300 gr 338 bullet. It will be from 3278 to 3310 FPS with that powder charge.

    I have to question the velocity of "only" 85 Grs of 4831 and the 250 gr 30 cal bullet. I shoot 78 gr of 4831 in my standard 300 Weatherby 1000 yard match guns with 220 gr bullets and the velocity is right at 3040 FPS. I'm only 7 grs less of the same powder. You think for a moment that that guy is pushing a 30 gr heavier bullet at 3900 FPS with that?? NO WAY

    I have had many 30/378 Weatherbys and have friends who have the 30/416 IMP and they can get no where near that velocity out of a 250 gr bullet. They have long barrels too at least 36".

    That fellow will have to show me that load being shot over an Oehler Chronagraph and with only a 34" barrel pushing a 250 gr bullet at 3900FPS using 85 grs of 4831-----NO WAY. Maybe he has a "Chrony" chronagraph?

    It's hard to believe what some publishers allow to be printed in their books before first testing it out and proving what has been said.

    I would do this, I'll put my Tomahawk up against the 30/416 Imp with him using 250 gr bullets and 85 grs of 4831 and me with 240 Gr MKs and I don't believe he will be ahead of me in velocity. I use 104 grs of 872 in my Tomahawk Now if he shoots 125 grs of a slow powder behind that 250 gr bullet, he will increase the velocity but, to no where near 3900 FPS---He might just get 3400 FPS though.

    Wonder what my 44" barrel chambered for the Tomahawk would give ??? Lets see, a 34" barrel is giving me 3200 with a 240 gr MK--another 10" of barrel should give me another 200 to 250 FPS.

    Now my 44" barrel is going to be chambered for the Tomahawk for sure. Just a matter of time.

    I use to read what some people were getting out of a LR cartridge and most times I would chamber it up and see for myself. The 6.5/300 Weatherby and the 7mm/300 Weatherby were two examples. Then came the 30/378 and 30/378 IMP and all the other 30 cal IMP cartridges plus the 338/416 ImP.
    When I read where someone with only 85 grs of 4831 and a 250 gr 30 Cal bullet out of a 34" barrel making a claim of 3900 FPS, that throws up a RED flag right away.

    I have learned long ago, don't believe everything you read in a publication.
    Check the testing that was done and with what equipment they used.
    3900 FPS from a 250 gr 30 cal bullet in a 416 size case using ONLY 85 gr of 4831 is "not" possible.


    [ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sounds like a typo to me, as that combination might give 2900 fps, not the 3900 fps mentioned. Just a thought... CJ
  6. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    May 7, 2001
    I had thought that, but it did say 3900 FPS.

    If the book that Texas read said 3900 FPS the editor needs a spanking.

    I can believe 2900 fps and if so, it's not very good velocity at all for a 250 gr bullet in that size case.

    Long live the Tomahawk

  7. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    DC and CJ you both are right!!! I tracked down the gentleman from AK to TX and asked him about it. The editor needs a spanking [​IMG] a typo on their part its suppose to be a 150gr sierra bullet at that speed. [​IMG] . Works great on PD's out at 600 yds or better. This is why I call this home you guys (fight) believe in what you know not what you read always. Would have been nice don't you think?
  8. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    May 7, 2001

    That's the problem many times.

    People read someting in publications and swear it can be done or that it's true.

    You can't just read about it and do it or many times even believe it.

    Sort of like reading how to ride a bike when you never have. You can read all you want but, you will NEVER know how to ride it till you actually do it.

    There are many years of shooting experiance on this forum by many shooters and my trust goes to the person who has done it and is still doing it to perfection.

    You know who they are when they give the shooting and loading information they have experianced and that has been successful for them over the years.

    Experiance in the field, at the range and at the loading bench, is the true test in this long-range shooting and hunting game.

    Darryl Cassel

    PS--I'll take the Tomahawk because 600 yards at a PD is NOTHING for an accurate 30 caliber especially when using the heavier bullets. I think someone has got them out to 2500 yards or further.

    [ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
  9. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Well-Known Member

    Jul 27, 2001
    Yep, article in precision shooter that has two guys trying for a two mile PD. Using the heavies in 30cal and 338 but out of smaller cases.

    Their rationale was that the higher initial vel didn't really affect the time of flight or end vel much when they were shooting so far away. I think one was using a 300win mag case and the other a 338Lapua. Barrel life would certainly have been better.

    They both had some very interesting scope mounts that had enormous amounts of elevation travel. It looked like 2 to 3" of adjustment. With that type of adjustment, you could probably get away with using a 308win. it would just take a day or two to get out there. Bullet may burn up on reentry - would be a problem.

    Ummm...how many minutes is 50ft of wind drift at two miles. LOTS...

    Enjoy the long weekend guys...

    Jerry Teo
  10. speed demon

    speed demon Well-Known Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    No that was no misprint! the man's logic
    was way off.I read a article on this some
    where..i cant remember as i have read so many articles. but anyway the guy didnt have
    a chronograph so he just shot it at 300
    or 400 yards and it had the say point of
    impact as his .220 swift so he concluded
    that it was going the same speed also..
    how he knew how fast the .220 swift was
    going i have no idea.. it have been factory ammo or he was assuming it from printed
    loaded data velocities...so you see it was
    no misprint that guys way off thinking was
    off.. anyway i have seen a .318 gerlach
    or something like that.. that got 4200+
    with 240 grain or 220 grain bullets..BUT!!
    The case is huge looked like to me it was
    close to a .50bmg and the barrel was
    SMOOTH bore.. accuracy wouldnt be worth a
    #&@*! and it took a 48 inch barrel to do it.
    it was supposed to penetrate tanks.. I think
    that some barrel maker should go into looking for a new steel alloy that will
    be alot tougher and stand more heat..
    and resist erosion better.. there are plenty of steel super alloys but im not
    sure which ones would work for barrel steel
    now blackstar is supposed have done that
    with their barrels they claim that they will
    last 2-3 times longer because their steel
    is 700 series stainless.now i have never heard of anyone testing to see if this is true.and also their website has moved or removed the section that stated that it was
    in gunsmith tips section. they are back in bussiness now.. it could be B.S. like alot
    of things..Now i know that super alloy barrels would higher but image if they could extend the life 5x-10x+ of stainless
    steel..i know they would be alot hard to machine but there has got to be ways to do
    it. A couple of years back i called mcmillan
    guns and asked how rock mcmillans .50/20mm
    went. he told he he got 4000+fps out of a
    750 grain bullet and might would have got
    more if the barrel hadnt burnt out in 10
    shots!! sometimes he said it would last
    close to 100 shot.. he even tried a stellite
    insert and it just started melting the rifling where the 8 inch stellite insert stopped.. So he shelved the idea.. Now
    if one had a super alloy here and i mean
    to take super alloy to last.. but this thing
    would have the flatest traj. and wind bucking ability.. Nothing would come close..
    just run some numbers for a 750 grain a-max
    or 800 grain barnes at 4000 fps and take a
    look for yourself..It would be hellish loud
    because of the 600+ grains of powder burn!!
    and there will be some people who will say
    ill just get a tank or missle or 30 mm or
    whatever else.. but thats not too realistic
    as it would cost the [email protected] of you and also
    the special permit required to own such equpment and the lack of good match bullets
    for the 25mm,30mm or what ever else would also hold one back..I for a fact that you dont need a special permit for a .50/20mm
    at least it wasnt 3 years ago when i checked. and as longs it says .50 and not moved up to 20mm.i checked this out because i seen a 20mm action for sale its was labeled as a .50/20mm action though.. im not sure why.. as for as calibers go there
    is no right or wrong calibers in my opinion
    as everyone is diffrent.. unless it is undergunned for the game intended.. but thats not for me to decide..as i would hunt
    ground squrriels with a .340 weatherby or
    .50bmg (if had a .50bmg) if the area permited it..as I DONT NOT COMPRMISE the safety of others with my crazy ideas..
    Now im not saying i do this in with regularity but i will if i decide too..
    and i also listen to EVERYONES opinion
    on equipment,bullets,scopes,guns, experiences.. as this is better than any mag
    article to me..no matter if it seems right
    or wrong.. reloading is nothing to play
    with as you could easily cause serious injury to yourself if not taking the proper
    safety precautions and working up loads
    safely...by the way im getting a oehler 35p
    soon also as i have had it with my cheap chronograph..it just hasnt been reliable in
    my experiences with it.. good luck and good
    shooting.. and maybe one day some one or
    barrel company,gun company might use a super
    alloy steel to make a long life barrel for
    a 6mm-284,or 6.5/300weatherby 1000 yard benchgun or could be used for that .50/20mm!! [​IMG]
  11. speed demon

    speed demon Well-Known Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    i swear i read a article that said he
    got that speed by it having the same point
    of impact as his .220 swift at 300 yards..
    now i seen that someone says that the editor
    says it was a type o.I wish i could remember
    what article that came from as if it can be
    confirmed that it was a type o. i would confront the person who wrote that..
    i didnt get it from here but look at the data from this link http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w30cody.html it doesnt seen right if that 250
    grain bullet was supposed to have been a
    150 grain bullet.. as i use 100 grains of
    imr 4350 in my .30-378 with a SHORT 26 inch
    barrel.. and it was shot though a oehler
    chrono (the oehler wasnt mine) at 3,810
    the load was slighty stickly. but i dont plan to shoot it..it was just for fun..
    and that load of mine is FACT NO B.S and
    also the chrono was a oehler 35p and i didnt
    own it.. my el cheap chrono wouldnt even
    pick it up..i think muzzle blast was messing with it.. anyway it seems things
    just get more skewed by the min and none of
    us on the forum is doing it.. its the Publications and their editors and wherever
    they get their info from. [​IMG]
  12. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Hey it would be great if you could get a 250gr. to fly at 3900fps out of a 30-34" barrel. But until someone comes up with a super powder will have to settle for a TOMAHAWK.(The indians win this round) [​IMG] .
  13. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

    Jun 12, 2001
    My gunsmith has the reamer. It measures exactly what Darryls 338-416 Rigby Imp case measures with the exception that it has just a couple thou less tapor to the shoulder and necked to 30 caliber. Everthing else was identical. this is the reamer I'll use for my 338-416 Rigby Imp but with a 338 pilot and seperate throater.

    I remember when my brother was going to have one of the 30 Codys built. He was saying the same thing and it would have 8000 or something foot pounds of energy or something like that. Sounded great back then. I didn't even know what it was then, but now I know that 3500-3700 is a stretch with that length of tube. That case will not do anywhere near 4000 fps with a 250gr.

    From what I understood the Gerlach was made just to break the 5300 fps mark and break the mile per second mark. It was a .416 Gerlach in a Ruger #1 with a 118gr mono-solid named after a German anti-tank gun desighner.