30-06 over 308

[Ranger Rick]

Thanks for your input I've looked hard at the 300 prc but cant find anything for reloading it here lately and I was considering 30-06 due to the fact I have dies and powder already and primers that I can use for reloading just need brass and also doesn't seem like 30-06 supply's are not as hard to find as every other caliber and seems like no one uses them anymore and yes I do mainly hunt deer and I already have a 6.5 creedmoore in mind to do semi build on after first of the year but then again cant find brass dies or anything for it right now

There is definitely 30-06 brass available but not so for 300PRC reloading. 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC are very popular, and reloading supplies are scarce. I shoot all three, and each is a great caliber.

 

[imyourhuckleberry]

Go with 30-06 as has been noted there is brass for it and when you finally have shot and reload enough of the 06 several times, you can always reuse the brass for the 308's you have. You'd be surprised how well it shoots with a 26" barrel.

 

[Stgraves260]

Yea your right that's how I figure it will go at this point and time I just would like to be able to reach out farther and be able to have the thump for elk past 500 and not have to thank twice about time and my dad are trying to plan a elk hunt for next year hopefully

If your shooting this far at a live target than Im guessing you have a ballistics calculator. If not you will surely need one. Study your target in what it takes for a clean kill. Let's use elk for an example. Some people say 2,000 ft lbs some say 1,500 ft lbs and I say 1,000. Nobody is wrong here. It's their own theory. Me personally I used the 30-30 method and the what I call the Jim Shockey method. Hopefully the people who read this will know who Jim Shockey is. He hunted all the big North American game with only a muzzle loader. His shots were at most 300 yards. With the 45 and 50 cal muzzle loaders. So find out what kinda energy a 50 cal muzzle loader has at 300 yards. Then pick the caliber rifle you want to shoot with the bullet you want to shoot plug those numbers in your ballistics program along with the BC and it will give you your FPS along w/ the energy at distance. You can have the biggest, baddest rifle in the world and it doesn't mean **** if you don't know it's limits and yours. My girlfriend hunts with a 243 and 105 grain Berger bullets. I thank a lot of people will say a 243 is the best all around deer rifle. Our dads probably made that our first gun to hunt deer with. People will say it takes 600 - 1000 ft lbs of energy to be considered a deer rifle. I use 600 ft lbs as my cut off for white tail deer. But again nobody is wrong here. It's just their theory. So my GFs 243 with 105 grain Berger bullets at 2830 FPS still has 600 ft lbs and 1600 FPS at 800 yards. So I consider a 243 to be a very effective 800 yards deer rifle. Let's say if she users her 243 on elk and let's use the 2,000 ft lbs energy she would be pretty limited to know more than 100 yards. But I feel 1,000 ft lbs is more than Adequate for elk that would make it effective out to 600 yards. She is very good with her rifle. She can hold a 4" 5 shot group at 700 yards. So in her case she does not like to shoot past 700 yards on live animals. She shoots a factory Remington Model 700 26"HB If we trued the action it would be much better. But she likes it the way it is. Good luck on whatever decision you make. Just know your equipment and yourself on what you are capable off. Study your target on what it takes to make a humane kill. Happy hunting.

 

[Stgraves260]

There's actually a lot of data on the Hammer bullets. Their design allows significantly higher velocities with the same powder charges along with lower overall pressures, and due to the lower pressures, charges can be increased significantly for more efficiency and velocity. I like them, I just can't afford them very well.

I thank you, too. I don't know how long you were in, but I know intimately where you were. I was there, too. Welcome home, welcome home, welcome home.

I have not used the Hammers yet. But I have heard good thangs about them. A few years ago I was in Arizona visiting some family. There was a Sportsman Warehouse there. I found a box of 500 Berger 140 grain VLDs. So I'm probably good for a while. But maybe one day I'll try some Hammers.

 

[greenejc]

ST Graves is right about the .308/7.62X51. The Army adopted it and it became the standard service round in 1957 and they began work on a match grade round to replace the M1C and D sniping rifles, which weren't particularly accurate not due to the round but due to the platform. The M21 was developed for the Army and the Marines had the M40 developed through Remington, using their 40X action. Carlos Hathcock actually used a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06, though.
The problem with the 30-06 round wasn't that it was inaccurate. It was that it wasn't accurate enough with the powders used in WWII. The round was loaded with IMR4895 or IMR3031, and it didn't fill the case enough. That couldn't be changed either, because the M1 Garand was timed for these powders, and when Mr. Hodgden and DuPont came out with the slower burning 4350 and 4831 classes of powders that were ideal for the -06, they couldn't be used in the M1 due to pressure issues at the gas port, which accelerated the bolt and op rod too rapidly, bending op rods periodically.
The .308, however, was ideally suited for powders in the burn range of IMR4895, which gave a 90 to 95% fill in that casing. This meant that the burn rate was more uniform in the .308/7.62 when it was developed because its case capacity matched the powder. So the M21 was much more accurate than the M1D. When you load the -06 with the newer powders which give a good fill to the cartridge, it greatly increases its velocity, burn rate uniformity and accuracy. In my Hodgden powder reloading book, StaBall 6.5 and Superformance will push the 180 grain Sierra at 2850fps or so from a 24 inch barrel at maximum charges. 165 grain bullets with these powders are up around 2970 to 3000fps.

 

[Stgraves260]

ST Graves is right about the .308/7.62X51. The Army adopted it and it became the standard service round in 1957 and they began work on a match grade round to replace the M1C and D sniping rifles, which weren't particularly accurate not due to the round but due to the platform. The M21 was developed for the Army and the Marines had the M40 developed through Remington, using their 40X action. Carlos Hathcock actually used a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06, though.
The problem with the 30-06 round wasn't that it was inaccurate. It was that it wasn't accurate enough with the powders used in WWII. The round was loaded with IMR4895 or IMR3031, and it didn't fill the case enough. That couldn't be changed either, because the M1 Garand was timed for these powders, and when Mr. Hodgden and DuPont came out with the slower burning 4350 and 4831 classes of powders that were ideal for the -06, they couldn't be used in the M1 due to pressure issues at the gas port, which accelerated the bolt and op rod too rapidly, bending op rods periodically.
The .308, however, was ideally suited for powders in the burn range of IMR4895, which gave a 90 to 95% fill in that casing. This meant that the burn rate was more uniform in the .308/7.62 when it was developed because its case capacity matched the powder. So the M21 was much more accurate than the M1D. When you load the -06 with the newer powders which give a good fill to the cartridge, it greatly increases its velocity, burn rate uniformity and accuracy. In my Hodgden powder reloading book, StaBall 6.5 and Superformance will push the 180 grain Sierra at 2850fps or so from a 24 inch barrel at maximum charges. 165 grain bullets with these powders are up around 2970 to 3000fps.

Very well said sir.

 

[greenejc]

I have not used the Hammers yet. But I have heard good thangs about them. A few years ago I was in Arizona visiting some family. There was a Sportsman Warehouse there. I found a box of 500 Berger 140 grain VLDs. So I'm probably good for a while. But maybe one day I'll try some Hammers.

I've got about 1500 Sierra 180 grain, 500 200 grain Sierras, 500 200 grain Speers and around 1000 180 grain Speers on hand right now. But I'd still like to experiment with the Hammers. Using IMR 4350 I get 2600 from the 200 grain bullets and 2680 more or less from the 180's. I'm experimenting with Superformance in 168, 180 and 200gr. bullets now.

 

[Stgraves260]

I've got about 1500 Sierra 180 grain, 500 200 grain Sierras, 500 200 grain Speers and around 1000 180 grain Speers on hand right now. But I'd still like to experiment with the Hammers. Using IMR 4350 I get 2600 from the 200 grain bullets and 2680 more or less from the 180's. I'm experimenting with Superformance in 168, 180 and 200gr. bullets now.

Yes sir. That would be very interesting to see if the rumors are true about the Hammers. Pressure signs are lower if rumors are true. That would be pretty interesting.

 

[greenejc]

Go with 30-06 as has been noted there is brass for it and when you finally have shot and reload enough of the 06 several times, you can always reuse the brass for the 308's you have. You'd be surprised how well it shoots with a 26" barrel.

I have a 1903A3 with a barrel from August of 1943 which I use periodically to shoot golfballs at 100 yards. Its a little hard on the golfballs, but it really opens eyes on the range when you do it next to someone with a 'precision rifle'. I also shoot steel with it at 600 yards when the wind permits. I'd shoot farther with it but the gun club's range only goes to 600 yards. I miss Ft. Riley. They had a 1000 yard POF range, and I could waste ammo there when it was open. Sometimes I opened it.

 

[greenejc]

Yes sir. That would be very interesting to see if the rumors are true about the Hammers. Pressure signs are lower if rumors are true. That would be pretty interesting.

The guy who owns the company is a member of this forum, and the information on their website is that all the Hammers produce lower pressures at standard velocities, and can achieve 100 to 200 fps more velocity with comparable pressures. The -06 as a 300 WSM or a medium velocity 300 WinMag. I like the idea.

 

[greenejc]

The major reason why the civilian version of the 7.62x51 NATO was adopted is that it cycles through machine guns, like the M60, at a faster rate of fire than does the .30-06 ( 7.62x63). Plus when you add things up, less powder, and less brass save weight as well.

Actually, it was to save weight. The M60 in all its iterations has a rate of fire of 550 to 600 rpm, which is exactly the same rate of fire for the M1917/M1919 machine guns in all their iterations, and the Browning Automatic Rifle. They were kept at this rate of fire for control issues. I know because I used to teach machine gun marksmanship. The M240 Bravo and Charlie has a higher rate of fire, which is adjustable from around 700rpm through 900rpm to 1100rpm. I ran it at 900rpm on my Bradley because 700rpm would carbon up the gas port and it would then jam. That's a bad thing in quals and worse in combat. On the ground, 900rpm is nearly uncontrollable. Also, you burn through a 100 round belt in a heart-beat. We stayed with the slower rate when dismounted, and changed barrels/cleaned the gas port on the hot barrel between changes. We couldn't really do that on a Bradley, but ammunition use wasn't a problem, because the ready box held around 1000 rounds. And the Bradley lets you dial range and automatically correct for range in the sight, plus the sight is a 10 power illuminated sight. Its about as much fun to shoot as you can have. The only thing better was shooting the chain gun.

 

[greenejc]

ST Graves is right about the .308/7.62X51. The Army adopted it and it became the standard service round in 1957 and they began work on a match grade round to replace the M1C and D sniping rifles, which weren't particularly accurate not due to the round but due to the platform. The M21 was developed for the Army and the Marines had the M40 developed through Remington, using their 40X action. Carlos Hathcock actually used a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06, though.
The problem with the 30-06 round wasn't that it was inaccurate. It was that it wasn't accurate enough with the powders used in WWII. The round was loaded with IMR4895 or IMR3031, and it didn't fill the case enough. That couldn't be changed either, because the M1 Garand was timed for these powders, and when Mr. Hodgden and DuPont came out with the slower burning 4350 and 4831 classes of powders that were ideal for the -06, they couldn't be used in the M1 due to pressure issues at the gas port, which accelerated the bolt and op rod too rapidly, bending op rods periodically.
The .308, however, was ideally suited for powders in the burn range of IMR4895, which gave a 90 to 95% fill in that casing.
My mistake: I posted this twice.

 

[Blackhawk]

Okay and yea I love my 308 wins and no I dont have any 7mm or 6.5 caliber I've been looking into 280ai and if I go 300 wsm it will be a savage more than Likely and yes I do reload.and I'm not stuck on a remington 700 action I'm open to any of the 700 style actions.

Points To Ponder:
I recently purchased a Savage High Country rifle in .300 Winchester Magnum caliber.
I think that dollar for dollar it has all the features except a 20 mm rail .(if you want one make certain to order the one with 6 x 48 TPI threads)
Not only this a very handsome firearm but it can shoot.
If you opt for a 300 Win. Mag, this is a viable choice.
OBTW this is my second 300 Win Mag rifle. The first one is another Savage and I have come to appreciate the quality, accuracy, and value of these rifles. This of course is after extensive load development and the finalization of loads for each rifle.
Additionally, I own several rifles chambered in .308 caliber, and 30-06 caliber respectively, and each has its place.
Basically I base my rifle and choice of caliber on what I plan to harvest with it.
Think about your needs as well as what you plan to use it for in order to justify a new rifle in a specific caliber.
Good luck with your decision!

 

[Dragoon300]

Figure out what rifle and options you want, do it in 06 and you will love it@